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“Nature is a deep form of technology,” says nature campaigner, Kalpana Arias, on Climate Curious. It sometimes feels like“big tech” is coming to get us, from its roots in military structures, and an overall drive to replace human connection with convenience, but what if we could “glitch” the system? From hacking Tamagotchi’s into garden sensors, to how guerilla gardening can reclaim our cities, and building “softer” technologies that bring together communities, Kalpana shares an alternate, more joyful version of nature and technology co-existing. Tune in with co-hosts Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst to move past the binary thinking of “tech good vs tech bad”, and start building your own healthy and happy symbiosis of nature and tech today!
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Meet Glitch the Chat Bug
00:18 Podcast Intro and Tech Dread
01:38 Introducing Ka Arias
02:40 Pandemic Roots of Gorilla Gardening
03:44 What Is Gorilla Gardening
06:01 Surveillance vs Opting In
07:38 Convenience Tech and Silicon Valley
10:37 Nature as Technology
12:29 Hacker Culture and Internet Origins
15:53 Alone Together and Glitch Feminism
19:09 Tech Hardware and Climate Costs
20:26 Data Centers Dilemma
22:27 Civic Pushback London
23:26 Tech Was Never Free
24:23 Cloud Language Myths
24:54 Space Data Center Detour
25:46 Building Glitch Platform
27:40 Bug Not Bot
29:02 Tech As Species
34:20 Softer Digital Futures
36:31 Hack The System
38:48 Design Shapes Behavior
39:58 Closing Credits
Meet Glitch the Chat Bug
[00:00:00] Kalpana Arias: When you go on the platform, you can speak to a sort of chat bug called Glitch, and it’s a bug instead of a bot. ’cause we also wanna promote this idea of relationship building with your technology. So we see technology [00:00:15] as a species rather than a tool that you can interact with.
Podcast Intro and Tech Dread
[00:00:18] Ben Hurst: This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate change.
[00:00:25] Maryam Pasha: I’m Maryam Pasha, the director and curator at TEDxLondon, and the co-host of this podcast. [00:00:30] Alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:31] Ben Hurst: Hi, I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like and self-confessed climate normie.
[00:00:41] Maryam Pasha: Hey Ben.
[00:00:41] Ben Hurst: Hey Maryam.
[00:00:44] Maryam Pasha: We have not [00:00:45] been in studio together for a while.
[00:00:46] Maryam Pasha: I’m
[00:00:46] really
[00:00:46] Maryam Pasha: excited.
[00:00:47] Ben Hurst: A long time.
[00:00:48] Maryam Pasha: It
[00:00:48] Ben Hurst: feels like a long time.
[00:00:49] Maryam Pasha: It does feel like a long time. Yeah.
[00:00:50] Ben Hurst: But we did a live like the other day.
[00:00:52] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, we did a live day. So that does count.
[00:00:53] Ben Hurst: Yeah,
[00:00:53] Maryam Pasha: and you can listen to it. Anyway, look,
[00:00:55] Ben Hurst: please do.
[00:00:55] Maryam Pasha: We are here to have a conversation that I’m very excited to have.
[00:00:59] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:00:59] Maryam Pasha: [00:01:00] Because I dunno how you are feeling these days about technology. Ooh. But I am, like, some days I love it. Some days I feel like it’s gonna be the end of everything. I am this, what is it called? The bro oligarchy. Or the techno bro Tech Oligarch Tech, you know, whatever [00:01:15] is, it just feels, I
[00:01:16] Ben Hurst: try, I try not to think about this stuff.
[00:01:18] Ben Hurst: I do. I’ve gotta be honest. Like I just try and avoid this ’cause it, it feels. Just scary, petrifying, natural.
[00:01:24] Maryam Pasha: And I, I would say that if you are someone who feels like Ben and wants to avoid this, this is a conversation to actually listen to. Okay. Because [00:01:30] I think that I feel better after this conversation.
[00:01:33] Mm.
[00:01:33] Maryam Pasha: And I think you will too. And I think that’s ’cause of who we’re talking to. Do you wanna intro? I love the guest.
[00:01:37] Ben Hurst: I, I would love to.
Introducing Ka Arias
[00:01:38] Ben Hurst: Ka Arias is a gorilla gardener, which will be explained as we get into the episode. A technologist, a nature rights campaigner, and the founder of Play, which is a social enterprise fighting for urban nature.
[00:01:51] Ben Hurst: She’s got over 10 years of experience researching how technology and nature can work together, from biomaterials and AI to robotics, [00:02:00] gamification, and other nature-based tech. And she campaigns for the right to grow nature rights. And tech for good.
[00:02:07] Maryam Pasha: I mean, I can’t think of a better person to help us muddle our way through how we’re feeling.
[00:02:13] Ben Hurst: Please,
[00:02:13] Maryam Pasha: God. Um, so Cal, thank you for [00:02:15] joining us today. Can you tell us a little bit, well, first of all, like tell us a little bit about how and why you’re thinking about climate and tech together. Like what has brought you to this point? Because the work that I know that you’ve done. Isn’t always been [00:02:30] about tech or has been, or, yeah, that’s not what I think about first of all.
[00:02:33] Maryam Pasha: So can you just tell us a little bit about that journey of how you’ve gotten to this point? And then tell us, are we wrong and we shouldn’t be thinking about this binary or,
[00:02:39] Kalpana Arias: sure.
Pandemic Roots of Gorilla Gardening
[00:02:40] Kalpana Arias: I mean, they’re big questions and, um, so I got into kind of like this, this journey of, um. Tech futures.
[00:02:48] Maryam Pasha: Mm.
[00:02:49] Kalpana Arias: Um, or looking at the ways technology can actually help scale nature-based solutions through gardening.
[00:02:54] Kalpana Arias: Mm-hmm. Um, it was during the pandemic, um, when all of the parks and sort of green spaces were [00:03:00] closing down, and I started to kind of explore what was going on around my neighborhood and a few friends, and I started gorilla gardening across our streets. And the more and more I spoke. To gardeners or people who just wanted to learn about gardening, the more I kind of [00:03:15] thought how easy it would be if all of these things were kind of accessible to us, but the culture of technology.
[00:03:24] Kalpana Arias: I would say even still today, I think doesn’t allow us to have that kind of accessibility to [00:03:30] information or it’s a very kind of cultured type of information that we’re giving access to. Um, and sort of my journey into it was thinking about. Thinking about technology through the, through the lens of accessibility as well as knowledge sharing
What Is Gorilla Gardening
[00:03:44] Maryam Pasha: for people who [00:03:45] don’t know what is a gorilla gardener.
[00:03:47] Ben Hurst: Just as a quick course I was gonna ask, but I just, because you carried on going and I just assumed that people knew what that meant. But what does that mean?
[00:03:53] Kalpana Arias: So gorilla gardening is basically planting in public. Spaces without permission or with permission at times. But [00:04:00] it really, it’s kind of a whole world about thinking about green spaces and public areas as a way that we have a right to our cities and a right to nature and a right to have a relationship with it.
[00:04:12] Kalpana Arias: So Gorilla Garden is all about kind of planting in [00:04:15] public places,
[00:04:15] Ben Hurst: right? Essentially it’s like graffiti gardening. It’s like. Gardening, like gr graffiti,
[00:04:19] Kalpana Arias: gardening,
[00:04:20] Ben Hurst: planting stuff in Yeah. Places. Just doing stuff.
[00:04:23] Maryam Pasha: I mean, I’ve not done it.
[00:04:24] Ben Hurst: I respect that.
[00:04:25] Kalpana Arias: I respect that. It’s a very, it’s a very, you know, go doer attitude.
[00:04:29] Kalpana Arias: It’s, you [00:04:30] know, if the world isn’t doing it for you, why can’t we just do it ourselves? Right. And in so many ways, I think the technology that really inspires me is really tapping into that kind of kind of solar punk type future where we’re just. Doing things ourselves. We’re building our technologies ourselves [00:04:45] because so many times the technologies that we do have around us, we’ve just opted into, we’ve subscribed without even thinking about like, do we actually wanna have a relationship with right, this kind of app or this phone, or, you know, whatever it might be.
[00:04:59] Kalpana Arias: [00:05:00] So I think being critical and thinking about our relationship with the tools around us is super important and how I started thinking about wanting to build my own platforms.
[00:05:11] Ben Hurst: Do you, do you ever get in trouble for, for going a garden [00:05:15] just outta interest before we move on? I does it. Does it ever have like bad, I knew you had a burning.
[00:05:19] Ben Hurst: I’m like, is there a consequence for this or do you just always get away with it?
[00:05:22] Kalpana Arias: Yeah. I’ve never gotten in trouble. I think, like I look. Probably like, I’m like a small woman who, you know, people won’t really [00:05:30] like think like, oh, she’s doing something bad. Right?
[00:05:31] Ben Hurst: Right. They’re like,
[00:05:32] Kalpana Arias: she’s
[00:05:32] Ben Hurst: meant to be plugged.
[00:05:33] Kalpana Arias: Okay. So I think if you do it with confidence, you never really get in trouble. But you know, there’s ways to do it. So, you know, different people within your community can feel, um, like. They’re able to [00:05:45] do it without that fear of, um, kind of surveillance. Um, but more than anything, I get people coming up to me being very curious about, you know, what’s going on or like how they can get involved or, you know, what I’m planting.
[00:05:57] Kalpana Arias: Um, so it really is a conversation [00:06:00] starter. I think.
Surveillance vs Opting In
[00:06:01] Maryam Pasha: It’s incredible, isn’t it? Like interesting, but just what you were saying before about the technology and the opting in, it’s incredible how we’ve gotten to a point where people planting flowers is more surveilled and monitored. Than like opting into, like, we’re more [00:06:15] conscious of that.
[00:06:15] Maryam Pasha: I’m more aware of that and more like trying to stop the, that than like the kind of ai,
[00:06:20] Ben Hurst: ai
[00:06:20] Maryam Pasha: generat like cookies and the things on our phone that we just agree to and don’t even think about. And yet those things are like way more harmful than someone planting and Yeah.
[00:06:27] Kalpana Arias: Yeah. And I, I, there’s [00:06:30] um, there’s a lot of kind of tech philosophers that I love and look to as like my north stars and pointers in like, navigating these crazy systems.
[00:06:37] Kalpana Arias: ’cause it’s really confusing. Like I think just, I think. We’re now, like I grew up in the generation where technology was just [00:06:45] kind of, you know, I didn’t have a phone until I was 12. It was emerging. It was emerging. Exactly. And now you know, kids are growing up with phones and iPads in front of them, so it’s.
[00:06:55] Kalpana Arias: A really kind of new landscape to navigate. And the [00:07:00] generations coming in now are digital natives. Yes. So these landscapes I think we need to readdress just as how we’re kind of looking at regulating our current environments. How are we regulating our kind of digital and cyber spaces? Um, but there’s a [00:07:15] philosopher, um.
[00:07:17] Kalpana Arias: And, wait, let me re repeat that. There’s, um, there’s, she’s this, I don’t know how to introduce herself, but she’s a scholar and, uh, um, educator. Taaz Taan Khan. I [00:07:30] don’t, let me repeat that. So I don’t That’s that’s what I’m ING’s
[00:07:33] Ben Hurst: do. Do it once the whole way through and then you’ll know and then do it again.
[00:07:36] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:07:36] Kalpana Arias: Okay. Um.
Convenience Tech and Silicon Valley
[00:07:38] Kalpana Arias: So I really love Taaz Khan, who is a scholar and the creator of Cyber Collective. Mm-hmm. And she often talks about the technologies that we kind of perform with our sort of technologies of convenience. Mm-hmm. And all of these kind of conveniences are how we navigate our day-to-day lives.
[00:07:56] Kalpana Arias: But a lot of the kind of platforms and apps that we. Kind of [00:08:00] look to are there to sort of replace this idea of the female or the mother. So we now, we now have apps that, you know, deliver food to us, that do our laundry, that pick us up from school or you know, all of these things that are kind of created from this kind of [00:08:15] cisgendered male.
[00:08:16] Kalpana Arias: White male perspective.
[00:08:18] Maryam Pasha: This is my favorite. Can I just say this is, I’ve heard this before too, and this is my favorite thing, is when someone points out that all the kind of apps that get funding in Silicon Valley are basically just a [00:08:30] bunch of young boys trying to replace their moms. Yeah. And you’re like, oh my God.
[00:08:35] Maryam Pasha: It’s like the driving you somewhere doing your laundry, cooking for you looks like
[00:08:39] Ben Hurst: I hate it and I hate it and it’s kind of, this is gonna really fuck up the way I use my phone. So it’s really, [00:08:45] well, no, I mean, screw up. I’m gonna have to delete Deliveroo.
[00:08:48] Kalpana Arias: No, I mean I still use Deliveroo, I use Uber. I use these apps.
[00:08:51] Kalpana Arias: But I think having the consciousness there that is
[00:08:53] Ben Hurst: so
[00:08:54] Kalpana Arias: interesting. We, what we get taken away from in our relationship to technology. We think we have all of this [00:09:00] choice, but in reality, unless you are aware of who’s. Creating these platforms, that choice is done for you. Right. Um, and it’s, it’s very much like, it’s big tech, big oil, big agriculture.
[00:09:12] Kalpana Arias: They’re all kind of in the same vein of industries [00:09:15] where you have a agglomeration of companies that are. Creating a number of platforms. So you think that you have all of this choice and all of this availability, and this is why I really love this kind of hacktivist, um, punk DIY tech culture because [00:09:30] communities and people are deciding for themselves what they would like to see, what they wanna interact with.
[00:09:34] Kalpana Arias: And so you can build it. But unfortunately, like also, for example, if you have an iPhone and if you’re wanting to build an app, it has to subscribe to certain. Design [00:09:45] styles, design styles that then create certain predictabilities and behavior part patterns, um, across the way that you’re using your technology.
[00:09:53] Kalpana Arias: Um, that all kind of point to, you know, technologies of addiction and all of this kind of behavior that we’re now seeing day to [00:10:00] day. So. We also kinda have to have to think about the infrastructures and the kind of mechanics of the platforms and the softwares that we’re building in. Man,
[00:10:09] Ben Hurst: this is, this is crazy.
[00:10:10] Ben Hurst: It sounds like you’ve gone down a serious rabbit hole here. Like this is like, ’cause this is like a, a [00:10:15] very niche. Well, is it very niche? No, because technology literally rules the way that we live our lives, and it’s everything that we interact with every day. Mm-hmm. But how did you find yourself at, at this point?
[00:10:28] Ben Hurst: Like, ha has this been something you’ve [00:10:30] always been interested in in terms of tech? Or is this like a new, a new thing that you’ve just recently started exploring?
[00:10:36] Kalpana Arias: Yeah, that’s a good question.
Nature as Technology
[00:10:37] Kalpana Arias: I mean. So I grew up with this kind of sense and understanding that nature is a deep form of technology and intelligence.
[00:10:45] Kalpana Arias: So, you know, when we talk about things like ai, there’s artificial intelligence, but there also, there’s also low tech understandings of it. And when I say low tech, it’s like local, traditionally collo. Ecological knowledge. Mm. Um, so that’s looking at like ancestral [00:11:00] intelligences and how seeds can be a form of technology because their data forms programmed to kind of grow into a flower.
[00:11:06] Maryam Pasha: Mm.
[00:11:06] Kalpana Arias: Um, so if we can look at nature through the lens, through this kind of biological intelligence lens, it kind of distorts this [00:11:15] idea of technology and it kind of reframes it so that we can. Maybe form a better relationship to it.
[00:11:23] Ben Hurst: That’s crazy because in my mind the next question I was gonna ask you was how do the two worlds collide?
[00:11:28] Ben Hurst: But what you are actually [00:11:30] saying is that they are one in the same thing
[00:11:31] Kalpana Arias: and one in the same. And yeah, I mean this points to that point, like the binary point that you were saying earlier. Um, you know, I mean, we live, we’re. We, we live in this kind of imaginary of, of binaries, of, you know, it’s black and white, it’s [00:11:45] nature and urban.
[00:11:46] Kalpana Arias: It’s gray or green, um, and it’s technology or nature, but. We know that the crisis that we’re facing is a crisis of relationships. So when we are kind of dissecting the two from the middle and [00:12:00] not allowing them to kind of co-create with one another, um, I think we’re digging ourselves into like this very small imaginary that is ruining the world.
[00:12:08] Kalpana Arias: Um, so I’m really interested in actually like, how do we connect those bridges and those pathways so that we can have a world [00:12:15] of plurality. Pluralities where different perspectives, different thoughts, different, you know, our phones could be totally different and it’s that they don’t have to be this black box, but they can exist in a myriad of ways.
Hacker Culture and Internet Origins
[00:12:29] Maryam Pasha: It’s so there’s [00:12:30] something you said earlier that I think is so interesting to me and I wondered if you could expand on it a bit. I. When I was growing up with technology, which is like maybe a little bit further back, one of the things I loved about technology, like traditional, I guess not [00:12:45] traditional technology, how do we talk about computer based ones and zeros programming technology matrix?
[00:12:50] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Was was this idea that. It came from a, it was, it became a counterculture. You know, it was like the hackers, it was, it was subversive, right? Mm-hmm. Like in the early [00:13:00] days that kind of like computer-based technology was subversive. It was, it was like breaking borders, like, you know, like geographic borders.
[00:13:09] Maryam Pasha: It was, you know, you were like hacking phone calls. You were, you were really actually [00:13:15] subverting the status quo. Mm-hmm. And now somehow we’ve lost in my mind, and we’ve kind of lost.
[00:13:21] Kalpana Arias: Mm.
[00:13:21] Maryam Pasha: It’s, it’s like what were the kind of hackers and the counterculture and now like the tech bros and the financiers and like [00:13:30] the, the, the, the phones destroying our kind of brains.
[00:13:34] Maryam Pasha: And I do you, as you started to go into this, are you seeing like a resurgence of kind of a hacker counterculture coming out of this in a different [00:13:45] way?
[00:13:45] Kalpana Arias: For sure. I think there is a hundred percent, but at the same time. I, again, I go deep down into the level of infrastructure. Like when the, when the internet came out, it was seen as this kind of like, you know, utopia.
[00:13:58] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:13:58] Kalpana Arias: And because a lot of [00:14:00] people had more freedom and there was kind of like hacking culture, but the internet kind of rose out. Of military structures. Mm. So I think we have to kind of be honest with ourselves on the, the, the, the base and the foundation [00:14:15] in order to really rebuild from a place that isn’t, you know, from control or surveillance.
[00:14:20] Kalpana Arias: Right. Um,
[00:14:22] Ben Hurst: you said, you said the internet came from military structures.
[00:14:25] Kalpana Arias: Yes. So I think it was, I’m gonna. I’m gonna,
[00:14:28] Maryam Pasha: it was darpa.
[00:14:29] Kalpana Arias: Hook this up [00:14:30] for that. Yes. Thank you.
[00:14:32] Ben Hurst: What, what, what’s going on? What’s happening? What’s, who’s, who’s darpa uh, who is that guy?
[00:14:37] Maryam Pasha: History lesson is that the internet was originally like for military to communicate with each other across.
[00:14:43] Ben Hurst: No way do people know this. [00:14:45] Everybody knows this. It’s just me. I don’t know.
[00:14:46] Maryam Pasha: No, it’s not just,
[00:14:46] Ben Hurst: I don’t think it’s a
[00:14:47] Maryam Pasha: common knowledge. I think it’s like if you grew up at that time.
[00:14:51] Ben Hurst: I feel like I did
[00:14:52] Maryam Pasha: well. No,
[00:14:53] Ben Hurst: I was there.
[00:14:55] Maryam Pasha: When do you first remember going online? Oh,
[00:14:58] Ben Hurst: I was probably about. [00:15:00] Eight, nine.
[00:15:02] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Like I didn’t get online until I was like 13.
[00:15:05] Maryam Pasha: Right, right. Like that was the first time we could get a dial in connection and a dial up connection. I hope. You know? So, I think even just if you were like fi, if you’re like basically five or six years older Yeah. [00:15:15] Than you are, you kind of have a little bit more of that. Yeah.
[00:15:17] Ben Hurst: That’s why even what the conspiracy was.
[00:15:19] Kalpana Arias: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think it points to this kind of culture of like centralization. And while, you know, again there’s convenience in centralizing things, there’s also, um. This [00:15:30] kind of pulling out of identity.
[00:15:32] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:15:32] Kalpana Arias: Pulling out of culture, uh, things become, become homogenized. Yeah. And there’s a danger in that.
[00:15:39] Kalpana Arias: And so I think where like hacking or DIY cultures come into play is that you get to kind of rebuild things [00:15:45] from scratch. Mm. And actually build things that are for your community. Um. But I mean, it there all, there’s all these like conversations.
Alone Together and Glitch Feminism
[00:15:53] Kalpana Arias: Like there was, I think there’s this book, um, that was published in 2011.
[00:15:57] Kalpana Arias: I can’t remember the author, but, um, [00:16:00] it’s called Alone Together. And it talks about, you know, the kind of isolation that the internet created or that we’re kind of experiencing through, again, the social media apps that we’re involved in, whether it’s Instagram or TikTok or [00:16:15] X or you know, and I think. If you, I lost my train of thought.
[00:16:23] Maryam Pasha: Well, no, I mean, I think you, you know, it’s interesting this idea of the isolation, the internet. ’cause the thing is, is, and I’m, [00:16:30] maybe I’m being really nostalgic here and maybe I’m influenced, but you know, in the early days right, you were able to connect like, so, like my husband’s a bit older than me, and so he was a like.
[00:16:42] Maryam Pasha: Even earlier. Mm-hmm. Like before you had any of [00:16:45] the stuff now and people were just in like chat rooms and
[00:16:47] Kalpana Arias: sn,
[00:16:48] Maryam Pasha: you know, even before any of that, like they were just in
[00:16:50] Ben Hurst: libraries
[00:16:51] Maryam Pasha: living in real life. He talks about meeting friends who like friends still to this day. In text-based gaming [00:17:00] chat rooms. Mm-hmm.
[00:17:00] Maryam Pasha: Where you played games, but the games were text-based, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like you chat with each other and like, it brought people together who would never have met. Mm-hmm. And so there’s like a part of me that still, I guess, romanticizes and. [00:17:15] Remember is that there was like a, there was a moment.
[00:17:18] Kalpana Arias: Mm-hmm
[00:17:18] Maryam Pasha: At which it felt like this was gonna change.
[00:17:22] Kalpana Arias: This is
[00:17:22] Maryam Pasha: everything for the better.
[00:17:23] Kalpana Arias: This is revolutionary a hundred percent. And I think that world is there, that subculture is there, and I think what I wanted to say [00:17:30] was, you know, with. This, this book that was called Like Alone, together, created this kind of propaganda and misinformation of the internet.
[00:17:38] Kalpana Arias: Is this device of isolation, uh, or that technology is like isolating us. And Can you say that again? [00:17:45] Um, oh gosh. From where I’m like,
[00:17:46] Maryam Pasha: just the technology is isolating us.
[00:17:48] Kalpana Arias: So like, I’m gonna have to start my thought over. Sorry,
[00:17:52] Maryam Pasha: sorry, sorry.
[00:17:52] Kalpana Arias: Um, so the, there’s this book from, there’s this book published in 2011, um, that talks about.[00:18:00]
[00:18:01] Kalpana Arias: There’s this book from 2011 that is called Being Alone Together. Mm-hmm. Or Alone Together. And it talks about the internet kind of promoting this culture of isolation. Isolation. And so this kind of [00:18:15] propaganda, I think promotes this sort of misinformation of like the internet as kind of dividing us or, you know, creating this kind of culture of loneliness.
[00:18:24] Kalpana Arias: Um, when. In fact, like the internet has actually created a safe place for a lot of people and for a lot [00:18:30] of like non-conforming bodies. And um, the best person I think that speaks about this so well is Legacy Russell, who wrote this book called Glitch Feminism, which is also kind of where, what was really inspired, um, our platform to call Glitch, um, which [00:18:45] looks at the ways that we can disrupt current technologies so that we can essentially create something new.
[00:18:51] Kalpana Arias: Um, and. I think we are missing that part of that subculture and that kind of basis of internet for Nation, where [00:19:00] we can think about the different worlds that the internet provides for different types of people and the way that it does connect us and can bring us together.
[00:19:07] Maryam Pasha: So one of the, so.
Tech Hardware and Climate Costs
[00:19:09] Maryam Pasha: Because when we’re talking about technology here, I think we’re talking very much about apps, about software, about platforms, but technology is more than that.
[00:19:16] Maryam Pasha: Like it has physical infrastructure, it’s hardware. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think in terms of like climate and environment and nature, the big headlines at the moment have been all about these data centers and about the the use of energy and power, and I’m just [00:19:30] wondering like.
[00:19:31] Maryam Pasha: Having, doing this deep thinking that you’ve been doing, how, what is your perspective on this part of the conversation?
[00:19:39] Kalpana Arias: It’s really like, if I’m being honest, it’s, I think it’s, it’s complicated. It’s [00:19:45] like someone who, as someone who works in tech and is an environmentalist and you know, really wants to make a better world.
[00:19:54] Kalpana Arias: You have to kind of engage with these infrastructures in any case, like, so the [00:20:00] platform that we are building called Glitch, um, it looks at how we can create nature-based education more accessible to anyone who kind of wanna, wants to plant in their, um, gray spaces or in their neighborhoods or anything like [00:20:15] that.
[00:20:16] Kalpana Arias: Oh, can I start that over? Of
[00:20:17] Maryam Pasha: course. But yes, do tell us us about Bring it into Glitch. I thought that was
[00:20:20] Kalpana Arias: good. Yeah. Um, can you ask the question again?
[00:20:23] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. So I can, uh, the end of the question was something like centers. Yeah.
Data Centers Dilemma
[00:20:26] Maryam Pasha: So you’ve got data centers and all this. How given that you are working at this intersection of climate and technology, how do you think about these?
[00:20:33] Maryam Pasha: I guess not problems, but big questions.
[00:20:35] Kalpana Arias: Yeah. So I think these are, it’s so complicated. Um, like I feel on a day-to-day basis really overwhelmed because, um, again, it comes back [00:20:45] to this kind of like idea of choice. Um, I think we’re, we’re not given, uh, a plethora of kind of ideas or choices to get out to, but we have to kind of function within the infrastructures that we live in.
[00:20:58] Kalpana Arias: Um, so [00:21:00] there are kind of. You know, climate type, climate friendly type of data centers that we can, oh my God, I’m not answering this very well. Sorry. No, no,
[00:21:11] Maryam Pasha: it’s good. You’re, keep going, keep going.
[00:21:13] Kalpana Arias: Um, like there are climate. [00:21:15] There are climate friendly, um, type of data centers that we can get involved with, but they would, again, disrupt our kind of daily conveniences.
[00:21:23] Kalpana Arias: Okay. So there’s, you know, solar powered data centers, um, and more green energy focused ones, but [00:21:30] they maybe don’t have the same resources or the same power that like their current infrastructures do. Right? So. It goes back to kind of, you know, what we’re feeding into as a culture, um, and what we wanna disrupt.
[00:21:42] Ben Hurst: So does this mean culturally we have to take a step [00:21:45] back in terms of technology? Does it mean if we want, if we want to not toast the, the planet, we’ve got to. Trans like transition away from the types of data centers we are using at the moment? Or do we just count, like do [00:22:00] we just cut that as a loss in saying that damage has been done?
[00:22:03] Ben Hurst: Yeah. We’ll, will we still use these ones and keep Instagram, but then do. Like, I dunno. I dunno. Yeah, I know. I’m like, let’s talk about what really matters here. No, but like, do, are we [00:22:15] saying we can get rid of, we need to get rid of the old stuff, or are we saying we’ve gotta think more carefully about how we build new stuff?
[00:22:23] Ben Hurst: Or is it both of those things at the same time? I
[00:22:25] Kalpana Arias: think it’s, it’s all of it at the same time.
Civic Pushback London
[00:22:27] Kalpana Arias: Plus actually citizens themselves asking the questions of, you know, where, where are these infrastructures gonna be placed? Who do they belong to? Right. Because, so I think London’s like an interesting case. For example, um, global Action Plan released, um, a report and I think it was the first case brought against the UK government for allowing like a data center, uh, or um, like a hyper mega data center to be placed out in West London.
[00:22:54] Kalpana Arias: And it’s now I think, being, um, repealed by the courts. [00:23:00] So I think as a society and as a culture, we. We have the responsibility to ask questions of the infrastructures that we’re going to be living in because they are environments, they’re the places that we call home, and if these places aren’t [00:23:15] locally used or aren’t giving resources back to the community in which that, in which it’s placed in, then we really have to question why that technology is there in the first place.
[00:23:25] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm.
Tech Was Never Free
[00:23:26] Maryam Pasha: I, I think what I love about the conversation right now actually is that been for a long time. Maybe willfully, maybe by design. You know, the technology kind of seemed free, and what I mean is that you, you sent an email. Like, you didn’t have to pay for an envelope paper, a postage stamp, like maybe you’re paying for your email address, but for a lot of people that get it through work or whatever, you know, it was like this technology is, it’s free.
[00:23:52] Maryam Pasha: You know, it’s convenient. It doesn’t, yeah, it doesn’t, you, you take a billion photos on your phone. Yeah. It doesn’t matter. You, and I think the conversation that the [00:24:00] AI kind of development that has brought to the forefront. Is that okay? AI uses like a thousand billion. I don’t know how many x what your email does.
[00:24:07] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm. But what I mean is that we’re now saying actually this stuff was never free. There was always somewhere a cost. Yeah. Using power, using [00:24:15] resources, physical space in someone’s community. We just never saw it.
[00:24:19] Kalpana Arias: There’s always a hard cost to technology For sure. And I think the issue.
Cloud Language Myths
[00:24:23] Kalpana Arias: I have a big problem with language.
[00:24:25] Kalpana Arias: Mm. The language around technology. ’cause we’ve got things like the cloud, right? Yes. [00:24:30] That makes it feel like it’s there. It doesn’t exist. I mean, we might be sending data centers out into space now. It might actually be in the cloud, but it is also, there is a, there’s like a hard technology to it. There’s a,
[00:24:42] Ben Hurst: are they really gonna do that?
[00:24:43] Maryam Pasha: Well, there’s [00:24:45] think this is another Elon Musk. Uh, is it, am I remembering this correctly? Does anyone know This’s another Elon Musker idea,
[00:24:50] Kalpana Arias: another Elon Musk idea.
[00:24:52] Ben Hurst: Elon Musk Grammar and I can’t remember. Okay.
[00:24:54] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Yeah.
Space Data Center Detour
[00:24:54] Maryam Pasha: One of the, one of the people that we think is absolutely amazing on this podcast, one of, one of our faves based off on Musk, has decided on a side note, can I just say that I can imagine that in like a hundred years, two other people will be sitting, having a podcast being like.
[00:25:09] Maryam Pasha: Why did we decide to send all this crap into space? Yeah. Now space is totally full. Yeah. I know that space can be full, but [00:25:15] you know, we can, we can absolutely put all this junk out in our, in our like close atmosphere and now we’re stuck
[00:25:20] Kalpana Arias: and it’s just like, it’s just, you know, removing the problem and putting somewhere else.
[00:25:25] Kalpana Arias: It’s like, you know, space colonialism in a sense, solving
[00:25:27] Maryam Pasha: the
[00:25:27] Kalpana Arias: problem and, you know. It. [00:25:30] I,
[00:25:33] Maryam Pasha: but, so, okay, let’s talk. So that was my side note about,
[00:25:36] Ben Hurst: yeah.
[00:25:36] Maryam Pasha: Sorry,
[00:25:36] Ben Hurst: I interrupted you. You were, you
[00:25:38] Maryam Pasha: were saying about, I mean, where, I’m curious about, you were talking. Well, yeah, so we were talking about this idea of the physical, there’s always a physical cost.
[00:25:44] Maryam Pasha: [00:25:45] Yes.
Building Glitch Platform
[00:25:46] Maryam Pasha: You have decided to build a platform. Tell us about that. Because we started with gardening and I think, and tech and technology and I’m really curious to know where, ’cause you, we’ve obviously done all this thinking. Where has that taken you? What are you trying to do at the moment?
[00:26:00] Kalpana Arias: So. Yeah. Okay. So I’m like, where did, where did it all start?
[00:26:04] Kalpana Arias: It kind of, so our idea of wanting to build this platform called Glitch started out from the frustration of not having a platform that actually had [00:26:15] these accessibilities and. So Google Maps is kind of like, kind of maybe like our grounding point because a lot of our planning for kind of like our Gorilla gardens or just kind of like green infrastructure, um, we look towards like [00:26:30] Google Maps.
[00:26:30] Kalpana Arias: So like if you’ve just moved into a neighborhood, you know, and you wanna find out where your local park is, you know you’re gonna use Google Maps or something like it in order to, to get to it, but. There’s just a huge problem with all of these kind of like tech, really big tech [00:26:45] kind of companies, um, because they don’t really cater towards your kind of local public needs.
[00:26:52] Kalpana Arias: Um, and so idea with this platform started because we wanted to create a space where community, [00:27:00] the community themselves, was giving us the data and information that they would relate to on a day-to-day basis. Um, I don’t know if I’m saying all this right.
[00:27:10] Maryam Pasha: Sounds, I’m
[00:27:10] Kalpana Arias: feeling a bit lost. Will you
[00:27:11] Maryam Pasha: give us an example?
[00:27:12] Maryam Pasha: Like it is always good to ground it. Like, so what does that look like in like, [00:27:15] do you have like a local example you could
[00:27:16] Kalpana Arias: bring that to
[00:27:16] Maryam Pasha: life?
[00:27:17] Kalpana Arias: Yeah, so I guess maybe if I just go back five seconds. Um, so. When we started Glitch, we kind of looked at Google Maps as kind of like a, a, a foundational start. Um, [00:27:30] it’s, you know, a place where you can kind of find your local green space.
[00:27:32] Kalpana Arias: Mm. But all of that information isn’t either locally dated from the people around you or the communities that are existing in.
Bug Not Bot
[00:27:40] Kalpana Arias: Um, so when you go on the platform, um. You can speak to a sort of chat bug, um, called Glitch, and it’s a bug instead of a bot. ’cause we also wanna promote this idea of relationship building with your technology.
[00:27:53] Kalpana Arias: Mm-hmm. So we see technology as a species rather than a tool that you can interact with. Um. And [00:28:00] let’s talk
[00:28:00] Maryam Pasha: more about that later
[00:28:01] Kalpana Arias: for sure. And so when you go on the platform, you um, can ask each questions about your local green space or also it kind of gives you these ideas of placemaking. And by placemaking, I mean, you know, thinking about.
[00:28:14] Kalpana Arias: If you [00:28:15] think about like the, you know, your neighborhood, where you live in and the streets that you pass on your day-to-day basis, and what gray spaces could become green. It gives you sort of invitations and kind of participation markers where it gamifies the idea of like, [00:28:30] you know, walking to work or walking to school.
[00:28:32] Kalpana Arias: Um, and in that way you can become this kind of ecological citizen that participates in your neighborhood as opposed to just treating. You know, your green spaces as these kind of secondary kind [00:28:45] of, you know,
[00:28:46] Ben Hurst: Pokemon
[00:28:46] Kalpana Arias: wave finding Pokemon Mongo. Yeah. In a way was, yeah. Yeah. A lot of people describe it as PokemonGo.
[00:28:50] Kalpana Arias: Yeah. It brings people outside.
[00:28:52] Ben Hurst: Yeah. That did do a lot for me actually. Like, I, I was going to parks I’d never been to before to try and catch a cha and stuff. Yeah. It was a [00:29:00] pretty intense moment. But that sounds like a great idea.
Tech As Species
[00:29:02] Ben Hurst: Like, but talk, talk a little bit more about the species thing. ’cause that scared me and I feel like, I feel like.
[00:29:10] Maryam Pasha: We
[00:29:10] Ben Hurst: love talking about
[00:29:11] Maryam Pasha: stuff that scares. Then
[00:29:12] Ben Hurst: I feel like that’s the beginning of a Terminator [00:29:15] film. Like I feel like that’s maybe humanizing technology beyond the point that’s comfortable for me, but I’m almost a hundred percent positive that I’m misunderstanding something.
[00:29:25] Kalpana Arias: Yeah, I mean, so there’s this idea in, um.
[00:29:28] Kalpana Arias: There’s this, uh, book called Deep Green. [00:29:30] I encourage you to read it. Yeah. It talks a lot about, you know, the, the ways that biology can come into technology and like influence it. Um, but they have this idea in the book that says, you know, our previous technologies were used to mechanize nature. Mm. And [00:29:45] now we’re using them to naturalize our machines, um, and
[00:29:48] Ben Hurst: recognize nature naturalized machines.
[00:29:51] Ben Hurst: Okay. Yeah. Cool.
[00:29:52] Kalpana Arias: And so what I like about that is that, you know, we’re. We’re using this kind of biodiversity data [00:30:00] and local, local data points that are given to us by citizens to feed information into this platform or into this bug that can then interact with its own intelligence and its own kind of like.
[00:30:14] Kalpana Arias: Um, [00:30:15] ideas, um, because we are kind of using a generative chat to kind of build conversations and relationships from, and in that way it’s not really about like anthrop, anthropomorphizing technology
[00:30:27] Maryam Pasha: mm-hmm.
[00:30:28] Kalpana Arias: But it’s that, you know, technology [00:30:30] also has a right to exist, right. In a way. Um, and if we can give it this kind of form of agency and power, um, you know, maybe our human imagination is really what’s been limiting it from.
[00:30:41] Kalpana Arias: You know, building its own body in a way, right?
[00:30:44] Ben Hurst: [00:30:45] So it’s like, it’s like setting a framework
[00:30:48] Maryam Pasha: I’m
[00:30:48] Ben Hurst: that is not, but maybe, maybe coming back to what we were talking about earlier, maybe is building a framework that is not based on militarization, which means that what evolves [00:31:00] from the technology will not be inherently harmful.
[00:31:03] Ben Hurst: To everybody that’s using it. And it could just be,
[00:31:06] Maryam Pasha: yeah,
[00:31:06] Ben Hurst: that’s the thing that I struggle with is like the idea that technology can actually just be positive. Like I just feel like there’s always this like dark undertone to it of like, [00:31:15] it’s going to get us in the end, the robots are gonna like,
[00:31:17] Maryam Pasha: but is that because I mean, why the robots
[00:31:20] Kalpana Arias: are coming
[00:31:20] Ben Hurst: come, they’re gonna come and get us.
[00:31:22] Ben Hurst: Yeah, yeah. I’m like, stop feeding the information.
[00:31:24] Kalpana Arias: So the robots are already coming to get us. The robots are already getting us. I
[00:31:28] Maryam Pasha: think the robots are here. I think
[00:31:29] Kalpana Arias: that’s
[00:31:29] Maryam Pasha: the, [00:31:30]
[00:31:30] Kalpana Arias: that’s the thing is, is. Yeah. Also we have become those robots, right? Like again, by the technologies of conveniences that we’ve built, we are kind of enslaved to these master tools.
[00:31:41] Kalpana Arias: And it’s, you know, that quote of will the master tools destroy the master’s house? Yeah. [00:31:45] And I think we just need to build new tools altogether. And perhaps what can help us build all of those tools is the more than human, because we’re kind of constricted in our human imagination through, you know, all of.
[00:31:57] Kalpana Arias: Everything that, you know, this world needs. Yeah. Needs
[00:31:59] Ben Hurst: to be a mom. [00:32:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:32:00] Kalpana Arias: It just needs to, we need, we need new imaginaries. And I love this idea of, you know, why I kind of love the idea of Sim Symbiotic Futures is because it combines this kind of biological intelligence, sorry, biological [00:32:15] intelligence with um.
[00:32:17] Kalpana Arias: With technological features. Mm. And I think from that place, you know, who knows where we can go? Um, and we, we do need the right, you know, guardrails and the right ethics to lead us in the way. But I think, [00:32:30] you know, this world is crumbling as it is, and we need new ways and new forms of living.
[00:32:35] Maryam Pasha: So here, here is the thing that is really surprising me about this conversation is that.
[00:32:44] Maryam Pasha: And let me just [00:32:45] ask this in the right way. It’s a, it’s a positive, but I, I, um, um, is it what you’re saying around this symbiotic way that we can be with technology, that we can build and create more than just human and, [00:33:00] and, and respect it and give it agency and think about it in this way and this really kind of optimistic way of thinking about it.
[00:33:07] Maryam Pasha: The reason why I’m, I’m like, wait a second, is because normally you hear this narrative from people who are trying to build stuff [00:33:15] that is really, actually very harmful.
[00:33:16] Kalpana Arias: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:17] Maryam Pasha: Right? Um, and they use this narrative to kind of cover up what is actually going on. Behind the scenes, like you, you know, I, I don’t know if that
[00:33:25] Ben Hurst: this could be the future of the way that
[00:33:26] Maryam Pasha: we live Revolution thinking.
[00:33:28] Maryam Pasha: What we hear a lot from the kind of centers current [00:33:30] big AI founders is they talk about it in this way, but then when you hear about the private conversations they’re having, you hear that they’re terrified by what they’re building, but they feel like they have to do it because it’s a bit of an arms race, or they don’t really care if it, that’s one side.
[00:33:43] Maryam Pasha: And then you have the other camp where they’re [00:33:45] like, they actually didn’t give a shit if it destroys the world because like they just wanna be the first that. Makes a GI or whatever it is,
[00:33:52] Kalpana Arias: or they’re building their homes out outer space.
[00:33:54] Maryam Pasha: Right. But what I’m hearing from you is, is a grounded, like a, like [00:34:00] a someone who actually believes this, not just for as a front for something else.
[00:34:03] Maryam Pasha: And I’m curious as to how this is received in. Climate community, how is this received in the technology community and and do you think it’s possible when you’ve got all these other actors that are not [00:34:15] Yeah. Like how does this work in the ecosystem of climate and tech and the world that’s out there?
[00:34:20] Kalpana Arias: Yeah.
Softer Digital Futures
[00:34:20] Kalpana Arias: I think, well, my personal experience, like in the. Climate. I mean, it, it’s, it’s got positive reception overall. Um, I think within the tech space, more positive in terms of how we’re integrating nature within these technologies. Right? And there’s, you know, more underground movements that are like looking at building softer technologies.
[00:34:42] Kalpana Arias: Again, with this lens of cyber feminism. [00:34:45] What is a
[00:34:45] Maryam Pasha: softer technology?
[00:34:46] Kalpana Arias: So softer technologies is, is looking at, you know, um, kind of like the cyberspace or cyber world. Through a softer feminine lens. Um, so how all of these kind of [00:35:00] current technologies are very male and white ENC coded,
[00:35:03] Maryam Pasha: right?
[00:35:04] Kalpana Arias: How we can actually build technologies that are non-conforming, that actually glitch the system right in order.
[00:35:09] Kalpana Arias: To build something else. Mm-hmm. Build something new. And so that’s what the idea of softer is. And [00:35:15] there’s really, there’s a community called Softer Digital Futures that you can look up and join. And they, they’ve honestly, like, it gives you such a breath of fresh air.
[00:35:23] Maryam Pasha: Right.
[00:35:23] Kalpana Arias: For what kind of ideas of technologies are out there and what we should actually be resourcing.
[00:35:28] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:35:29] Kalpana Arias: Um, and giving [00:35:30] more attention too. Um, but also like, just I think the importance of DIY culture in that is. Like, I think if anyone takes anything away from this, it’s like learn about the tech infrastructures that are around you. You know, like learn how to build your own [00:35:45] computer. Um, I’m currently like hacking Tamagotchi in order to become garden sensors and things like that.
[00:35:50] Kalpana Arias: So it’s just, you know, more playful software ways right. In which we can engage with our current infrastructures. Yeah. Um, and then in terms of like [00:36:00] maybe how, I think the environmental. Space is interacting with these ideas. Mm-hmm. You know, they’re cautious and they should be. Like, we’re normally the ones sounding the alarm right.
[00:36:10] Kalpana Arias: When it comes to things. Um, and I think we should always remain critical of the technologies [00:36:15] that are emerging and continuously innovating. But what we can’t forget is. You know, the, the kind of already technological infrastructure infrastructures that we’re living in.
[00:36:27] Maryam Pasha: Right.
[00:36:27] Kalpana Arias: And I think we need to kind of dismantle [00:36:30] that Yeah.
[00:36:30] Kalpana Arias: In, in and of itself,
Hack The System
[00:36:31] Maryam Pasha: because you can, I mean, I think that’s a really interesting point, this idea of that we are living in here. Mm. The, the option of just opting out entirely, although I guess some people choose that, that means you also opt out of like. Huge bits of society and like [00:36:45] participation. So, you know, the thing that I’m really, the thing that I’m taking from this conversation, and tell me if you think this is a, like, tell me if you think I’ve understood this correctly, because I, it’s blowing my mind, which is why I’m struggling with articulating it, is [00:37:00] that we built.
[00:37:02] Maryam Pasha: The, the current technology that surrounds us has been built on a premise of like white male supremacy and, and militarization. So of course, the outputs that it has created are [00:37:15] ones oppressive, are oppressive, just like the other outputs that that same system of created are oppressive.
[00:37:20] Kalpana Arias: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:21] Maryam Pasha: But if we take that technology and instead build it on a foundation that is more communal l less centering whiteness, less centering mask.
[00:37:29] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. It’s [00:37:30] all those things. Then the outputs of it could be fundamentally different.
[00:37:34] Kalpana Arias: Exactly. Yeah. I think you need to, we need to hack our current technologies. We need to find a better use and a better, a democratic way of actually using [00:37:45] what we currently have and. You know, being resourceful about it because we’re kind of, we’re at that window of time and the possibilities of technology going one way because that’s what’s being heavily resourced, is there, but we could also go the [00:38:00] other way.
[00:38:00] Kalpana Arias: Something that’s, you know, more democratic, more community based, and more nature focused.
[00:38:05] Maryam Pasha: I think this is incredible because I think for, for me personally, because I think for a long time I felt this real uncomfortable tension where I actually love technology.
[00:38:14] Kalpana Arias: I [00:38:15]
[00:38:15] Maryam Pasha: always have. You know, like, I love being, I was like, I had, you know, I had old floppy discs, like, you guys may not remember this, but disks used to be floppy.
[00:38:23] Ben Hurst: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:23] Maryam Pasha: You know, um, when there were even discs.
[00:38:25] Ben Hurst: Yeah. When they were squares.
[00:38:27] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. No, no, no. When they, yeah. When they were like big. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:38:30] And like, I’ve always loved technology and I’ve always, and recently over time, I felt this kind of pressure to have to disengage with it if I wanna be a responsible citizen, both in terms of the planet, but also in terms of people.
[00:38:43] Kalpana Arias: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:44] Maryam Pasha: And. [00:38:45] This feels like there’s another way.
[00:38:47] Kalpana Arias: Yeah.
Design Shapes Behavior
[00:38:48] Kalpana Arias: I think it comes back to design and behaviors. Like that’s my kind of like two-prong approach when it comes to technologies. Like we can kind of put like the, the hardware aside for a second. Yeah. But at the very basis, like technology is there to.
[00:39:04] Kalpana Arias: Enhance our creativity. Like anything that we’ve ever made, you know, whether it’s like a spoon or anything that’s come from our human creativity is a form of technology.
[00:39:14] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:39:14] Kalpana Arias: [00:39:15] So if that technology is meant to en enhance and entice certain human behaviors, we have to go back to like the very basics of why we’re designing something.
[00:39:24] Kalpana Arias: Mm-hmm. Um. And there’s, um, Alex Wolf, who’s an incredible tech [00:39:30] philosopher. Um, and practitioner often says, you know, design changes behaviors faster than good ideas. And we have a ton of good ideas out in the world, but we need better design, you know, um, and I think that means that as people, as citizens in the [00:39:45] world who care about the current state of our planet, we have to really think about the way that we’re designing our infrastructures, our worlds.
[00:39:54] Kalpana Arias: And go from there.
Closing Credits
[00:39:58] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for joining us this week. [00:40:00] We really hope you’ve enjoyed this episode.
[00:40:02] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s release. While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:40:10] Maryam Pasha: Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the pod
[00:40:13] Ben Hurst: executive produced by Josie [00:40:15] Colter,
[00:40:15] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshty.
[00:40:17] Ben Hurst: Music also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:40:19] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Izzy Gladston.
[00:40:22] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:40:24] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:40:26] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha.
[00:40:27] Maryam Pasha: And remember,
[00:40:28] Ben Hurst: stay [00:40:30] curious.
