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“There are no better messengers than artists” says climate campaigner, advisor, and author, Tori Tsui, as she unpicks the relationship between music and climate on the Climate Curious podcast. In conversation with Climate Curious co-hosts Ben Hurst and Maryam Pasha, Tori shares how some of the biggest artists like Massive Attack, Brain Eno, and Coldplay are using their platform for good, and how the “teeth” of the Fossil Fuel Treaty can support musicians and artists to step into climate action. From unashamed “eco-kid” to science nerd and now climate advisor, we get to know the ‘It’s Not Just You’ author on another level.
Follow Tori Tsui: https://www.instagram.com/toritsui_/?hl=en
Read Tori’s book, ‘It’s Not Just You’: https://www.waterstones.com/book/its-not-just-you/tori-tsui/9781398508750
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Website: https://tedxlondon.com/podcast/
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Intro
01:32 Do climate And music mix
06:15 Music as climate conduit
08:48 Climate justice is everything
11:45 Artists power to shift culture
13:27 Fossil fuel sponsorship exposed
16:21 What is the fossil fuel treaty
18:10 Music activism for the treaty
24:15 British Vogue and ray story
30:18 Authenticity over perfection
33:03 Santa Marta explained
35:49 Just transition roadmap
39:53 Culture after fossil fuels
42:27 Artist recommendations
43:45 Everything is connected
44:54 Final thanks and credits
Intro
[00:00:00] Tori Tsui: Thinking about sponsorship again, I just don’t want to see them infiltrating our arts institutions and spaces. I want art to be free from the constraints so that people can create freely and meaningfully, [00:00:15] and honestly,
[00:00:16] Ben Hurst: this is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate change.
[00:00:23] Maryam Pasha: I’m Marion Pasha, the director and curator at Telex London, and the co-host of this podcast. Alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:29] Ben Hurst: Hi, [00:00:30] I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like and self-confessed climate normie.
[00:00:40] Maryam Pasha: So for those of you who don’t know Tori, Tori, let me tell you about her. [00:00:45] Yes. Before we, we jump into this conversation. So Tori is a environmental campaigner, an author from Hong Kong. She’s a senior advisor to the Fossil Fuel treaty. Which she’s gonna tell us about later. Mm-hmm. She’s a campaigner for Stop the Rosebank Coalition and works across like a [00:01:00] variety of initiatives within the music industry, including Brian Eno’s, earth Percent in Place of Wars, earth, Sonic, and Climate Life.
[00:01:07] Maryam Pasha: I mean, you will have seen her in British Vogue, Mary Claire, cosmopolitan, I mean, lots of things. And her debut book, it’s not just [00:01:15] You, which is an amazing book there.
[00:01:17] Ben Hurst: A book as well.
[00:01:17] Maryam Pasha: There’s like 11 things in the intro. And I actually, I just skipped over like half this bio, just so you know. Um, her debut book.
[00:01:25] Maryam Pasha: It’s not just, you won Waterstone’s Book of the Year Awards. Wow. And she was [00:01:30] shortlisted for the Wain Wright Prize.
Do Climate And Music Mix
[00:01:32] Maryam Pasha: Let’s start with the idea of culture. Music. Yeah.
[00:01:35] Ben Hurst: This, this is. It interesting for me because I, I’m gonna be honest with everyone here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don’t see how they, how they cross. I like, I do, I [00:01:45] do get it in my brain.
[00:01:46] Ben Hurst: Sure. But I understand the, the theory. But in practice, I don’t see many moments where climate and. Culture, specifically Music.
[00:01:55] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:56] Ben Hurst: Sure. I mean, I feel like it’s only like that one Jami song [00:02:00] and, and the Thundercat song like a, a Thundercat de cut, a B side where there’s like a conversation about climate.
[00:02:06] Ben Hurst: You head
[00:02:06] Tori Tsui: already,
[00:02:06] Ben Hurst: but I don’t, yeah, I don’t know. Is, is it? Does it, does it merge more than I think it does.
[00:02:11] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Absolutely. I think it depends on how you frame it. Are you talking [00:02:15] more kind of from the perspective of like, we literally have musicians and artists talking about climate and making music about climate, or are we talking about the general sort of consensus that music and culture as a reflection of the times and therefore is influenced by living in a time of climate [00:02:30] collapse?
[00:02:30] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:30] Tori Tsui: Because to me it’s, it’s both obviously, and I think more of my work recently has kind of format. Focused on the latter. Mm. Um, but there is a, there are a lot of concrete examples of musicians who have been [00:02:45] putting themselves out there, being like, I’m writing songs about the climate. I’m using my platform to talk about climate change.
[00:02:51] Tori Tsui: Mm. I’m gonna make sure that my touring, that my merch, that my entire existence as an artist is curated with the climate in [00:03:00] mind. And there are, there are enough examples of people who have done that, but. It’s not shouted about, which I think is a reflection as well of perhaps the priorities of, of what I guess the music industry wants to shed light on.[00:03:15]
[00:03:15] Ben Hurst: Yeah. ’cause that does count. That does does
[00:03:17] Maryam Pasha: count then It does. It does.
Tori Origin Story
[00:03:18] Maryam Pasha: Let’s take a little mini step back. I’m really curious. Toria how you came to this intersection. Mm. Because there are so many things you could work on. There are so many ways you could approach the climate crisis and you kind of as when you were younger, when you started down this path, did, is this something you were interested in right away?
[00:03:37] Maryam Pasha: Is it something you came to later? Just tell us a little bit about that.
[00:03:40] Tori Tsui: I’ve always had an interest. In the environment, which I feel like is a very cliche thing to [00:03:45] say, bird. Right, right. I know, but, but the reason why I kind of get a little bit like hesitant about saying it is because I don’t wanna detract from people who didn’t have that.
[00:03:54] Maryam Pasha: Like, like Ben and I,
[00:03:55] Tori Tsui: right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I, I wanna prove that you can be someone who advocates for the environment, right? And. [00:04:00] Um, climate progress without having been that kid that’s like, let’s recycle. But I was that kid. I was that really annoying kid that was like, please, can we turn off the lights and the aircon?
[00:04:09] Tori Tsui: And now fast forward like 30 years later, I’m someone who’s like, oh, we need to take down the fossil fuel [00:04:15] industry. So it’s, it’s evolved.
[00:04:16] Ben Hurst: It’s a bigger light
[00:04:17] Maryam Pasha: switch.
[00:04:17] Tori Tsui: Yeah, exactly. Like a much bigger light switch. Um, and I think the music aspect, well, everyone loves music. Yeah. Um. It’s always been a huge part of my life.
[00:04:28] Tori Tsui: I was a [00:04:30] very, very frequent gig goer growing up and I think, you know, there were moments of my childhood and my teenage years where I was quite lost and I really relied on music to kind of make me feel at home in myself.
[00:04:43] Maryam Pasha: Mm.
[00:04:43] Tori Tsui: And I, I fell into this sort of [00:04:45] weird like little job where I did music PR in Hong Kong for a while and I thought, I really wanna work in the music biz.
[00:04:51] Tori Tsui: Um, and then. I realized that actually I’m a really massive nerd and I wanna go study science and like do a PhD. Um, and this can wait. [00:05:00] And then I think it wasn’t until sort of just after the pandemic, I got an email from Brian Eno’s team asking me if I wanted to join them in being an advisor for Earth Percent, which is his charity, which takes money from the music industry, redistributes it to different environmental [00:05:15] and social justice causes.
[00:05:16] Tori Tsui: Wow. But also really tries to spearhead this sort of, um. Galvanization of people in the music industry to care about this place that we call home, like make it inherent to the culture of, of being in the music [00:05:30] industry and. Then, you know, that starts and it was almost like a lightning rod for other things to come my way.
[00:05:36] Tori Tsui: I started working with Billie Eilish quite a lot, um, specifically on her initiative. Overheated, worked with massive attack. I’ve worked with lots of different [00:05:45] artists who wanna use their platforms to talk about climate, but also other social justice clauses like the genocide that’s happening in Palestine.
[00:05:52] Tori Tsui: So, yeah, it kind of just one thing led to another and it’s a space I feel very comfortable in and it feels like [00:06:00] somehow my worlds have collided. Come back round again.
[00:06:03] Ben Hurst: That’s crazy.
[00:06:04] Maryam Pasha: I mean, it’s crazy because as those of you who know me know, I don’t know who anyone is and I knew all the people
[00:06:11] Ben Hurst: really
[00:06:11] Maryam Pasha: highly.
[00:06:11] Maryam Pasha: So these are like big names.
[00:06:14] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:14] Ben Hurst: [00:06:15] How nuts is that?
Music As Climate Conduit
[00:06:15] Ben Hurst: So is it, does it feel like you’re in the the right place, doing the right thing in this moment?
[00:06:20] Tori Tsui: I think so. Yeah. I mean, I’m, I’m obviously still a campaigner and a huge part of my advocacy focuses on fossil fuels, but I don’t see them as separate.
[00:06:27] Tori Tsui: Right. I think that if you’re gonna talk about the climate, you have to [00:06:30] talk about fossil fuels.
[00:06:31] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:06:31] Tori Tsui: And I think if you’re gonna talk about any form of injustice that we’re facing at the moment, fossil fuels are kind of like, they’re like the blood that pumps this very corrupt heart that is, you know.
[00:06:41] Tori Tsui: Dictating the way that the world is going at the moment. So I think that [00:06:45] everybody should be talking about fossil fuels, and I think that music is an amazing conduit to communicate some of these ideas when the facts and figures don’t really. Work,
[00:06:54] Ben Hurst: and this is, this is interesting. ’cause campaigning is how I knew, I, I, I’ve, that’s the work of yours [00:07:00] that I’ve been following.
[00:07:00] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:01] Ben Hurst: And so the music stuff seemed like it had like completely come out of left field. Like it, yeah. Yeah. To me it just looked super random.
[00:07:07] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:07:08] Ben Hurst: But I guess when you think about it, music. In culture has been part of every [00:07:15] significant
[00:07:15] Tori Tsui: Absolutely.
[00:07:15] Ben Hurst: Shift historically. Mm-hmm. Every significant moment of like social change or social impact.
[00:07:20] Ben Hurst: I feel like music has played a part in it and so that’s cool. That like you are getting the opportunity to match those two things together. Does it feel like it’s, [00:07:30] is it, is it a big movement that’s going on? Like is there lots of stuff happening there?
[00:07:34] Tori Tsui: There are a lot of things that are happening. I think to kind of go back to your point about music, always.
[00:07:40] Tori Tsui: Being there when we are witnessing social and political change. It’s a very [00:07:45] interesting thing thinking about climate in that landscape because when I think about the music that was released, kind of, um, supporting the civil rights movement, like the end to the Vietnam War, talking about what’s been happening in Palestine, they feel very sort of, um.[00:08:00]
[00:08:01] Tori Tsui: Organic and they feel very, you know, charged and integrated into the times that we’re living in that it almost feels difficult to pry apart the music from the social and political change we’re seeing with climate. It feels like [00:08:15] it’s a little bit trickier, and the reason why I think that is because climate.
[00:08:20] Tori Tsui: Can appear obscure to the average person, and they might not necessarily see who’s most culpable. And the facts and the figures can be hard to translate into artistry, [00:08:30] but that’s not to say it doesn’t have a place, I just think it needs to incubate a bit more and it needs more momentum. That being said, we do have a lot of people who are spearheading sustainability.
[00:08:40] Tori Tsui: We have your Billie Eilish, your Coldplay, auroras, Jacob Colliers, all of [00:08:45] these artists who use their platforms in really great ways.
Climate Justice Is Everything
[00:08:48] Tori Tsui: But at the same time, and I, I would be curious to hear what you guys think. We’re at a point in history and time, at least for me as a campaigner. I walk into rooms and I talk about climate, and there’s almost like this sort of moment of, Hmm, but what about everything else?
[00:09:03] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it is bigger than climate.
[00:09:05] Tori Tsui: Exactly. There’s a lot of
[00:09:06] Ben Hurst: stuff happening. Yeah,
[00:09:06] Tori Tsui: exactly. And I think that’s why I still really emphasize that the work I do is climate justice oriented, because it really includes every single thing that we’re seeing, the [00:09:15] rise of fascism, the rise of like. Big tech and ai.
[00:09:18] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Authoritarianism. Like genocides, wars, militarism. Yeah. It’s all part of it. That climate, and I write about this in my book, climate in and of itself does not feel like an all encompassing enough word to [00:09:30] describe. The actual crisis that we’re living through.
[00:09:32] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, there’s two things I’ve seen recently that have probably really hit this nail on the head for me where I felt like Yes, yes.
[00:09:40] Maryam Pasha: This is what we’re talking about. Um, one of them is, uh, one of the videos is [00:09:45] Zach Polanski made for the Green Party, where he’s known. If you guys have seen it, he’s on a beach. Yeah.
[00:09:51] Ben Hurst: Oh yeah. No, I’ve only seen the ones of him walking down the road. My favorite ones. I’m the one with Domi Pao, where
[00:09:56] Tori Tsui: they did like a little trend.
[00:09:58] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, no, this is actually [00:10:00] kind of. It’s, let me tell you, let me paint the picture. So, mm, Zach Ancy is on like a, it’s obviously the, one of the coasts of the UK ’cause it’s like Pebbly and Stormy and it’s, it’s a British seaside and he’s in his like waterproofs and whatever, and he is like, um, I met a guy here the other [00:10:15] day who was carrying a gun and it immediately hits you ’cause you’re like, wait a second.
[00:10:19] Maryam Pasha: I thought the green party was gonna be talking about like coastal erosion. Why are we talking about this? And I asked, and he asked the guy. Why were you carrying a gun? And the guy said to shoot people coming in on the small boats. [00:10:30]
[00:10:30] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:10:31] Maryam Pasha: Which is what a start. Yeah, yeah. The video and, um. Anyway, the video goes on for a bit and then later on he says, now you might be wondering why is the green party talking about this?
[00:10:41] Maryam Pasha: And he says, this line, the same thing, poisoning our [00:10:45] rivers is poisoning this man’s mind.
[00:10:48] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
[00:10:48] Maryam Pasha: And I was like, nail on the head. Not seen a better articulation of what we are up against
[00:10:53] Tori Tsui: mm-hmm.
[00:10:53] Maryam Pasha: Than this. And I think it was the same thing recently about some, someone was writing on LinkedIn. I can’t remember who, unfortunately, about [00:11:00] how, if you’re feeling like you’re working on climate and you’re seeing all the Epstein files being released and you’re feeling like, what am I doing?
[00:11:07] Maryam Pasha: Overwhelmed. Yeah. You know? Yep. The person said, and I wish I could remember who it was. These are all the same things woven into the same system. [00:11:15] Absolutely. So whatever thread you are pulling on, you are pulling on threads to unweave the system.
[00:11:18] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:11:19] Maryam Pasha: So I think. It’s this, this feel, sorry. I think this feeling of, if it’s bigger than us, it’s interesting that people come at you with this.
[00:11:28] Maryam Pasha: I think it just speaks to [00:11:30] how we’re feeling overwhelmed and how that is intentional.
[00:11:35] Tori Tsui: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. I would say that there is an intentional, overwhelmed, that’s always been a tool of fascism is also to squash our [00:11:45] imagination. Yes.
Artists Power To Shift Culture
[00:11:45] Tori Tsui: Which is why I think the arts are so important during this.
[00:11:47] Tori Tsui: Absolutely timely, and that’s why I think there’s also this real. Um, gravitational pull for me to work in the arts because there are no better messengers than artists.
[00:11:57] Maryam Pasha: Agreed.
[00:11:58] Tori Tsui: And I think they have [00:12:00] such cultural power as well, and they have the financial power in many ways. I’m not talk necessarily talking about the smaller artists, but when you think about the big artists in the industry Yeah.
[00:12:08] Tori Tsui: That’s,
[00:12:08] Ben Hurst: they create industries wherever they go, they carry an industry,
[00:12:11] Tori Tsui: which, exactly, exactly. I’ll give you an example of something that. [00:12:15] Um, that I remembered, which was that I remember when Taylor Swift, I think she must’ve been doing her eras tour, there was this discussion about how h and m created this display of all the clothes that could mimic Taylor’s outfits on the ERAS tour, and it like boosted their re sales and [00:12:30] revenue.
[00:12:30] Tori Tsui: I mean, every city that Taylor Swift has gone to is apparently it’s just like driven up revenue of these places. Mm-hmm. Not to condone h and m or any of these things, but I think it just goes to show like these, the certain level of power that these artists have and oh my God, if someone like Taylor Swift [00:12:45] decided that she was gonna be a climate body overnight mm-hmm.
[00:12:47] Tori Tsui: Things would change, you know? Yeah, yeah. Things would really
[00:12:49] Maryam Pasha: change. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we know this historically, right? Because if we look at. If we look at all those mo movement movements that you mentioned before. Mm. The civil rights movements, I think about things like [00:13:00] Woodstock.
[00:13:00] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:13:00] Maryam Pasha: And the peace movement.
[00:13:01] Maryam Pasha: I mean, you cannot think about those moments in history without thinking about the music.
[00:13:06] Tori Tsui: Yep.
[00:13:06] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:07] Tori Tsui: Absolutely.
[00:13:07] Ben Hurst: And I, I, I wanted to come to this part of the conversation ’cause there was something interesting you said earlier about the [00:13:15] idea that, uh, culture or music changes things. Culture changes things.
[00:13:19] Ben Hurst: Yep. And that. It’s really important for, uh, the climate crisis to be a part of that cultural conversation.
[00:13:25] Tori Tsui: Absolutely.
Fossil Fuel Sponsorship Exposed
[00:13:27] Ben Hurst: But I also think it’s really interesting ’cause it, it almost feels like we’re a little [00:13:30] bit late to the conversation, because from my understanding, maybe you can correct me here, big oil has been investing in culture, right?
[00:13:38] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Like the, the investment has been there, just not. In, in the right direction in terms of like miseducation, in terms [00:13:45] of gas lighting, in terms of covering over stuff that’s been happening. Absolutely. Yeah. I’m wondering if you’ve got any examples of like that kind of stuff happening? ’cause I, I feel like it happens all the time.
[00:13:53] Ben Hurst: It does. I really struggle to put my finger on it when I see it happening.
[00:13:56] Tori Tsui: Yeah. It’s, it’s endemic. I think sponsorship [00:14:00] is such. A huge area to tackle because it’s not just the music industry, it’s sponsoring museums and arts and cultural institutions. Um, but we are seeing grassroots movements who are actively fighting against that.
[00:14:13] Tori Tsui: And you are seeing artists who are [00:14:15] also pushing up against having something like fossil fuel sponsorship. I kind of wanna, you know, elaborate to people why that is the case that we’re seeing fossil fuel companies sponsor these events. And it’s a way of. Obscuring their responsibility. Mm-hmm. You know, I’m sure [00:14:30] you guys have spoken about the social license, the justification to exist, their cultural relevance, and also I think there’s something to be said about how when you have a fossil fuel, um, company sponsoring the arts, it it just makes them more palatable and more pleasing.
[00:14:44] Tori Tsui: Yes. And [00:14:45] it feels like if you’re to attack the fossil fuel sponsorship, it’s, it’s akin to attacking art itself.
[00:14:50] Ben Hurst: Yeah. You’re taking,
[00:14:51] Tori Tsui: you’re taking the, you’re taking away the art from art. Exactly. And that is the thing that is. So tragic, and it makes me ask, okay, but then what is the point [00:15:00] of culture and art, if not to take a stand.
[00:15:03] Tori Tsui: Create change in society and someone unfortunately has to pay the price. And more often than not, it’s the smaller artists. Yes. But I think about the times that artists have stepped away and said, for instance, no to Barclays who have been [00:15:15] sponsoring lots of Live Nation festivals. And in fact, it got to the point where they actually stopped that sponsorship because of the backlash.
[00:15:23] Tori Tsui: So Live Nation is no longer sponsored by Barclays. I also did this activation, um. With the Fossil Fuel Treaty and massive [00:15:30] attack last summer where the Fossil fuel treaty was being endorsed by Massive attack. And we’d found out just a few days before I was due to go on stage and speak at their concert that Barclays had just signed a deal with the co-op live arena.
[00:15:42] Tori Tsui: And of course knowing the guys from Massive attack, they were like, [00:15:45] absolutely not, but we are legally tied to doing this. Yeah. And so I was just like, I’m gonna say something and, and what. What that kind of was, was this, you know, there was this moment of tension friction, me thinking, oh my God, am I such a hypocrite going on stage at this arena that’s being [00:16:00] sponsored by Barclays and all of these things, but we are naturally hypocrites in the system.
[00:16:04] Tori Tsui: Yeah. And it doesn’t matter if you’re a small artist, a big artist, a campaigner, a, a concert goer, you can take a stand against things in a way that feels, um. [00:16:15] Accessible to you within
[00:16:15] Maryam Pasha: your reach. Yeah.
[00:16:16] Tori Tsui: Yeah. And it’s, it’s all about what sort of level of power you have. Mm-hmm. And what you can do with that power.
What Is The Fossil Fuel Treaty
[00:16:21] Maryam Pasha: One pause moment. In case people haven’t heard of the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty, can you just give us a couple of lines on it?
[00:16:27] Ben Hurst: It’s me. I’m people, so, yeah.
[00:16:29] Tori Tsui: So [00:16:30]
[00:16:30] Ben Hurst: what are you talking about? You heard of it? We,
[00:16:32] Tori Tsui: we, so. Funnily enough, it is no longer the fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty. Okay, tell
[00:16:38] Maryam Pasha: us.
[00:16:38] Tori Tsui: It is now the fossil fuel treaty, which because non-proliferation is quite a mouthful. I
[00:16:43] Maryam Pasha: was actually incredibly [00:16:45] proud of myself for annunciating that
[00:16:48] Tori Tsui: Well, it a tricky job.
[00:16:49] Maryam Pasha: Years to practice.
[00:16:50] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Yeah. I um,
[00:16:52] Maryam Pasha: yeah, the fossil fuel
[00:16:53] Tori Tsui: treaty.
[00:16:53] Maryam Pasha: Okay. Tell us about
[00:16:54] Tori Tsui: it. So, the Fossil Fuel Treaty is. A global agreement to push for the phase out [00:17:00] of coal, oil and gas,
[00:17:01] Ben Hurst: right
[00:17:02] Tori Tsui: as the leading cause of the climate crisis.
[00:17:05] Tori Tsui: It is also seen as a complimentary agreement to Paris, which, you know, there’s talking about keeping warming within 1.5 degrees. [00:17:15] We’re not on track. Hopefully the fossil fuel treaty can offer us that sort of alternative and provide those guardrails to make sure that we are keeping on track. Mm. Um, it.
[00:17:25] Tori Tsui: Really is quite explicit in the name Fossil Fuels, and I’m [00:17:30] hoping that with a treaty like this, it will actually get us to a point where we can have these hard conversations and where. Countries all around the world, specifically, those most marginalized feel equipped to have a just transition, which has not been [00:17:45] afforded to so many people before.
[00:17:47] Tori Tsui: Um, and yeah, the Fossil Fuel Treaty is, it’s an amazing initiative. I’m really, really blessed to be working with them and I’m also really grateful that they. See the power and the importance of the arts. [00:18:00] Right. In their advocacy.
[00:18:01] Maryam Pasha: Because this is what I wanted to ask you about. ’cause we are really familiar with the treaty here at the podcast.
[00:18:05] Maryam Pasha: We’ve had Zipporah on a few times.
[00:18:06] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:07] Ben Hurst: I love Sapporo.
[00:18:08] Tori Tsui: Such a energy. I love
[00:18:09] Ben Hurst: Zipporah.
[00:18:10] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
Music Activism For The Treaty
[00:18:10] Maryam Pasha: Um, tell us about how you’re bringing music into that work. It’s so [00:18:15] interesting.
[00:18:15] Tori Tsui: Yeah. So I mentioned the. Massive attack concert that we did. We did a big public engagement at their concert in Manchester. That was a way to kind of signify that they were endorsing it.
[00:18:27] Tori Tsui: But we also did a, a signing on top of [00:18:30] the, um, the mayoral city council building in Manchester with, uh, mayor Andy Burnham and Grant and Rob from Massive Attack. And that’s just one example of how we’ve worked with musicians. The other way is. Way back when, I think it was [00:18:45] two summers ago. Um, Brian hosted an event in his studio.
[00:18:50] Tori Tsui: Brian Eno host an event and he invited the Fossil Fuel Treaty folks down. And we also have a band called, this is Our Home Project. They’re amazing Pacific [00:19:00] Islander musicians.
[00:19:01] Maryam Pasha: Yes. Yes.
[00:19:01] Tori Tsui: And. Uh, Brian Eno filmed it and sent the video to Chris Martin and they went on tour with Chris in Australia and New Zealand to promote the fossil fuel treaty.
[00:19:11] Tori Tsui: Wow. So those are just two concrete examples of how we’ve worked in the arts, [00:19:15] but we are launching this artist letter. Okay. Um, it’s an open letter, it’s an ongoing one, but it’s basically a public caught arms to say that artists stand for a transition, a just transition away from fossil fuels. A letter is.
[00:19:29] Tori Tsui: Perhaps just [00:19:30] seen as symbolic, but I think symbolism is really important right now. We need to be connecting these dots. Mm-hmm. Because the more that we do that, the more we can build cross-cultural solidarity, the more momentum we can make across different societies and really empower people to realize that it doesn’t matter what [00:19:45] sector of society they come from, they can be part of creating a better world.
[00:19:48] Maryam Pasha: And
[00:19:49] Tori Tsui: I think it’s important to note that while I do work in the music space. Artists in this sense, can include everything from writers and authors to actors, musicians, to, [00:20:00] you know, um, programmers to people who are just working in the arts in general. So it is really very open and we’re calling on people from, uh, all around the world to sign for sure.
[00:20:09] Tori Tsui: But we’re also putting an emphasis on our target countries, like for instance, Iceland and Spain. [00:20:15]
Why An Artist Letter Matters
[00:20:15] Ben Hurst: So what, what does the letter do? Like what, what. What’s the impact of it? If everybody signs it? Yeah, like let’s say all of the, well, not all of them. What percentage would be a good percentage off the top of your head?
[00:20:24] Maryam Pasha: Of who?
[00:20:25] Ben Hurst: Of of people in the arts industries. Who, who wanted to sign?
[00:20:28] Tori Tsui: Well, a hundred percent would be, [00:20:30]
[00:20:30] Ben Hurst: let’s say a hundred percent of people sign it.
[00:20:33] Maryam Pasha: Even 50% of people
[00:20:34] Ben Hurst: would be 50. Incredible.
[00:20:35] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:20:35] Ben Hurst: What happens? Like what’s the,
[00:20:37] Tori Tsui: well, I think, you know, kind of at a. A basic level, we could be like, oh, there’s a lot of press potential here and we can, we can talk about this [00:20:45] conference in Columbia.
[00:20:45] Tori Tsui: Yeah, in a sec. But I’m thinking about the press and just how much attention would be drawn to the treaty and raising awareness. And I think it also provides an opportunity for a lot of people to think about how fossil fuel. Interact and [00:21:00] infiltrate with their everyday lives in the arts industries because it’s like, where are you receiving sponsorship?
[00:21:06] Tori Tsui: Who are you kind of, um, you know, going to, to, sorry, can I, um, so it, it begs the question. Where are you [00:21:15] getting your money from? Who’s sponsoring the events? And also it just creates this level of awareness to realize these people have their tendrils in really deep. Mm. Um, and I think if we have that kind of consciousness that will spark conversations, that will create more awareness.
[00:21:29] Tori Tsui: And [00:21:30] hopefully as we’ve done with the treaty, a lot of our messaging is very intersectional. They’ll realize that. The reason why you can’t pay your bills. Yeah. The reason why it’s getting harder to live. The reason there’s a cost of living crisis, there’s increased militarism. More and more political issues, more authoritarianism is [00:21:45] because.
[00:21:45] Tori Tsui: Fossil fuels aligning the pockets of people who are destroying this planet. And I think the treaty has been very, very conscious of their messaging from the start. I think they’ve been very intentional to show that fossil fuels kind of are the, the groundwork for a lot of, [00:22:00] you know, the bedrock, as you said, of so many of these issues in society.
[00:22:04] Tori Tsui: Um, and I know that. A lot of people can go, oh, letters, petitions. Are they actually making a difference? The treaty has teeth.
[00:22:12] Maryam Pasha: Mm,
[00:22:12] Tori Tsui: it has teeth and it has momentum, and [00:22:15] that’s the most exciting thing. Yeah, this isn’t just symbolic. This isn’t just some sort of thing where we’re going, this is cool. You need to sign onto it.
[00:22:21] Tori Tsui: There are real, tangible outputs and outcomes. Yeah, like with the Santa Marta
[00:22:25] Maryam Pasha: conference? Yeah. I mean, just to say like, as someone who’s done campaigning activism for a long time, I think the [00:22:30] thing to think about is that we don’t, like if you are a decision maker, right? You don’t know, like you don’t know what your quote unquote constituents, whatever that is, really think so what
[00:22:41] Ben Hurst: they think or feel, feel.
[00:22:42] Maryam Pasha: So if it, if it’s, you’re a politician, that’s your [00:22:45] geographic constituents, right? Like that’s your, your physical constituency as an mp. If you are the head of a big arts organization, that’s your employees and people who work in the arts, if you’re a record lib, whatever that is, a letter like this allows you to see what [00:23:00] the people who are in your community want in very pain.
[00:23:05] Maryam Pasha: And it then gives you, you, gives you the social license or the political cover or whatever we. People talk about it to act. Yeah. Because it says, oh, I’m not just acting because I’m an [00:23:15] activist in my own right. Sure. I’m acting on behalf of all these people who I’m actually a steward of who I’m actually supposed to represent.
[00:23:22] Maryam Pasha: Absolutely. Absolutely. So it’s, it’s, it can feel like these things, I think today when everything is so [00:23:30] big and bad and, and, and tough, it can feel like, oh, what is a letter in the, in the face of the, like, I don’t know, militarization of the world, but. If you look historically, these things have had impact.
[00:23:41] Maryam Pasha: Yes. The voice
[00:23:42] Ben Hurst: of the people.
[00:23:42] Tori Tsui: Yeah, absolutely.
Art Reflects The Times
[00:23:43] Tori Tsui: It makes me think, actually of this potential for artists to create art according to what they’re informed by. Mm-hmm. And I always say, and I, I’ve said this to a lot of people, many of my friends who are musicians, that art is a reflection of the times, which also includes the people who wanna make music that.
[00:24:02] Tori Tsui: Creates escapism to mm-hmm. Block out all that noise that create pop bangers that are just trying to win the algorithm. It’s all a reflection of the times. Yeah. But underneath all of that, you do have the political music that’s coming [00:24:15] through.
British Vogue And Ray Story
[00:24:15] Tori Tsui: And I have this very fond memory from a few years ago where I got invited to do this photo shoot with British Vogue.
[00:24:22] Tori Tsui: What they call Women 25, which is like 25 women in Britain shaping dah, dah, dah, dah. You know, those sorts of lists. Um, [00:24:30] we know those lists. No, not to. I can’t wait
[00:24:32] Ben Hurst: for time to be able.
[00:24:34] Tori Tsui: Yeah. 25
[00:24:35] Ben Hurst: women’s list.
[00:24:36] Tori Tsui: I’ll be rooting for you. Um, sorry that was rather facetious of me.
[00:24:41] Maryam Pasha: Um, I’m actually really for bed to be, my time
[00:24:44] Tori Tsui: has gone
[00:24:44] Ben Hurst: [00:24:45] whoever’s.
[00:24:45] Tori Tsui: I tell you what, it’s a real highlight of mine because I ended up getting ready in the dressing room and there was only one other person in the dressing room, and it was Ray who ended up being the front of that. And my God, has she blossomed in the last two years,
[00:24:58] Ben Hurst: baby. Where the hell [00:25:00] is my husband? You know, that’s
[00:25:02] Maryam Pasha: where
[00:25:02] Maryam Pasha: the
[00:25:03] Ben Hurst: hell
[00:25:03] Maryam Pasha: is my,
[00:25:03] Tori Tsui: okay.
[00:25:04] Tori Tsui: Yes I do. Yeah. And guys,
[00:25:07] Maryam Pasha: this is, as I said, I don’t know who most people are.
[00:25:09] Tori Tsui: I represent that
[00:25:10] Maryam Pasha: demographic.
[00:25:11] Tori Tsui: She, she’s hot. She, she’s fiance. Yeah, she’s, she’s [00:25:15] amazing. And she has a heart of gold. And let me tell you, speaking to her for an hour was such a gift because I wasn’t just talking to her about music.
[00:25:21] Maryam Pasha: Right.
Eco Anxiety In Art
[00:25:21] Tori Tsui: We were talking about eco anxiety. Yeah. Yeah. She wrote a whole song called Environmental Anxiety. Mm. And she was like, why is nobody talking about like, I [00:25:30] literally can’t sleep at night. This is such a big deal. Mm. And my manager was with me in the room and she was just like, oh, I’ve got a gift for you.
[00:25:35] Tori Tsui: And she gave. Ray my book. Yeah. And she’s just like, thank you for talking about this.
[00:25:39] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:25:40] Tori Tsui: Art embodies so many different forms, and I wanna see more people writing [00:25:45] about this, singing about it, creating, and, and I, I feel slightly, um, frustrated almost at artists who, I get it, they’re trying to make ends meet, but I, I implore them, please make music that is a reflection of [00:26:00] the world that we are living in, like an authentic.
[00:26:02] Tori Tsui: Reflection, talk about what’s happening. Mm. Talk about the things that are going on in the world. The, the changes.
No Music On A Dead Planet
[00:26:07] Tori Tsui: There is no music on a dead planet. That’s literally an organization. Yeah. And for good reason, there is no music on a dead planet. And I find it really. Odd that especially bigger artists who have the most responsibility are so willing to just shy away from everything that we’re seeing all in the name of profit, which at what cost, you know?
Silence Is A Statement
[00:26:28] Maryam Pasha: Isn’t that in and of itself a [00:26:30] statement like, I think maybe that’s the thing that, that, because like I, you know, at the time of recording this episode, there’s, and I won’t go into the specifics of it, but there’s a lot of conversation around like, should artists say things?
[00:26:40] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:26:41] Maryam Pasha: And I think this. Thing that I just always laugh at when I see this conversation [00:26:45] is saying nothing is saying a thing.
[00:26:47] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:26:47] Tori Tsui: Literally. So, literally,
[00:26:49] Maryam Pasha: so when people look back historically right at a decade of music Yeah. If, if you think about it, they always put it within the historical context of what is happening. So if you are gonna make something. [00:27:00] And ignore it. That is actually name, that’s a statement. Yeah. That’s, that’s a statement.
[00:27:04] Ben Hurst: Yeah. And surely that’s the music that people want to listen to also, like music, music that speaks to the, the world that you are living in, the experiences that you are having. Yeah. Is the music that you’d want to hear and, and something to see. I [00:27:15] mean,
[00:27:15] Maryam Pasha: isn’t that, isn’t that the history of like Wall of Hiphop
[00:27:17] Ben Hurst: for example?
[00:27:17] Ben Hurst: Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:18] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
Using Your Platform Creatively
[00:27:18] Tori Tsui: And I think there’s also something to be said about artists who may not necessarily make music that is. You know that has politics written all over it, but they still use their platform. And I’ll give you an example. So I asked Billy Eilish one day. I was like, are you going to make a climate song?
[00:27:37] Tori Tsui: And she was just like. No, because I can take any of my songs and put a spin on it and say that it’s about the climate. And she did this, um, launch for the, the [00:27:45] youth strikers, the climate strikes, where she used all her, all the good girls go to hell as a way to promote it. And she’s like, well, it’s not inherently about climate, but like.
[00:27:53] Tori Tsui: We’re gonna use it because I can. It’s my, and it’s my platform. It’s my artistry. Isn’t
[00:27:58] Maryam Pasha: that change? I mean, that’s interesting, right? Yeah. Like [00:28:00] if you were just, I guess it’s like saying you don’t have to say the word climate or environmental or those things. Not
[00:28:04] Tori Tsui: at all.
[00:28:05] Maryam Pasha: You just have to imagine that you’re living in a world of environmental.
[00:28:11] Maryam Pasha: Crisis.
[00:28:12] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:28:12] Maryam Pasha: And then make that music.
[00:28:13] Tori Tsui: Yeah. And there are plenty of [00:28:15] musicians out there who are not necessarily known for making quote unquote political music. Right. Who are some of the most politically vocal people I know Paloma Faith, for example, who has been extremely passionate and. Very, very loud and proud about supporting Palestine.
[00:28:29] Tori Tsui: [00:28:30] She has been someone who’s, you know, always gone. I will do anything. I will perform. I will do. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that that is also a testament to the fact that, okay, if you are an artist, yes, your artistry may be your songs, but that’s not the only way that you can. [00:28:45] Create change. Yeah. Like your artistry is also your performance, your voice, your oration, how you use space, how you talk about,
[00:28:51] Maryam Pasha: yeah,
[00:28:51] Tori Tsui: the times that we’re living in.
Afraid Of Getting It Wrong
[00:28:53] Maryam Pasha: Here’s a question for you, for artists who are listening, maybe ’cause as you said, this can be, you don’t have to be selling even a [00:29:00] single song. You don’t. You could be writing your first word of your book, you know, like,
[00:29:05] Tori Tsui: yeah.
[00:29:06] Maryam Pasha: Everyone starts somewhere all the way up to like bestsellers and big hits. But for artists across that spectrum.
[00:29:13] Maryam Pasha: One of the things I hear all the time is they [00:29:15] just, they’re scared of getting it wrong.
[00:29:16] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:17] Maryam Pasha: And, and you’ve worked with so many different artists. You’ve been on that own journey yourself of learning. What would you say to someone who’s like. This is so important. I just don’t wanna get it wrong.
[00:29:27] Tori Tsui: I would say that’s valid and I can totally [00:29:30] empathize with their fears, especially in an industry that penalizes them for speaking out.
[00:29:34] Tori Tsui: Right. We have to be honest about that and I, I hate to be negligent of that reality because it is true and I’ve seen it happen to even smaller artists where it’s already really, really hard to. To [00:29:45] break even in this industry, I would say that there are people and communities out there who can support you.
[00:29:50] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm. And we are so much stronger when we are together, and that’s exactly what Brian Eno is doing with Earth Percent. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s also akin to the ethical syndicate that they created when there are [00:30:00] lawyers for Israel, targeting musicians in the UK for speaking out. And it’s. If we band together, it’s gonna be so much harder for them to take us down.
[00:30:09] Tori Tsui: Mm. It’s the same, come together with other artists and there is a perfect organization out there. Mm. That holds [00:30:15] artists, no matter how big, no matter how small you are. Welcome.
Authenticity Over Perfection
[00:30:18] Tori Tsui: Mm. The other thing I would say is. It’s okay if you’re not perfect. Mm-hmm. Like if it’s a matter of, oh, I’m afraid of being a hypocrite.
[00:30:25] Tori Tsui: We’re all hypocrites. I’m a hypocrite. I’m so hypocritical.
[00:30:28] Maryam Pasha: I mean, we can’t live in the system [00:30:30] without being hypocritical.
[00:30:30] Tori Tsui: Not
[00:30:31] Ben Hurst: a north, I’m actually not a hypocrite. So if you could speak for yourself, actually that would be great, but No, yeah, I hear what you’re saying.
[00:30:36] Tori Tsui: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I’m perfect.
[00:30:39] Maryam Pasha: Possible to make good decisions. Right. That’s the thing because
[00:30:42] Ben Hurst: is the, the system is designed to, the system is [00:30:45] designed, yeah. To force
[00:30:45] you
[00:30:45] Tori Tsui: into that corner and, and I think that. If you are being authentic, that’s all you can ask for.
[00:30:50] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:51] Tori Tsui: If you are saying, I don’t necessarily understand the full breadth of this crisis, but I don’t think that there should be fossil fuel giants lining their pockets while I can’t pay my [00:31:00] bills,
[00:31:00] Maryam Pasha: right.
[00:31:00] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:01] Tori Tsui: Then that’s enough. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That, that is, that is a statement in of itself, and I think that really claiming your authenticity and being true to what your values are as a human mm-hmm. Is part of mm-hmm. Speaking up. Yeah. It doesn’t have to be polished or [00:31:15] perfect. Yeah. I mean, when I first started doing climate campaigning, I had no clue what I was talking about.
[00:31:18] Tori Tsui: I just went, I hate this.
[00:31:19] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:20] Tori Tsui: I’m gonna do
[00:31:20] Maryam Pasha: something about it. On that journey of like figuring out.
[00:31:22] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:31:23] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
Let Artists Make Art
[00:31:23] Maryam Pasha: I mean, I think there’s something interesting here also, I think for the climate community to acknowledge, which is something that I have been learning. Yeah. The more I work with artists.
[00:31:31] Maryam Pasha: Which is that you can’t dictate,
[00:31:33] Ben Hurst: you’re not in control
[00:31:34] Maryam Pasha: of art. Like what that art is gonna look like. Yeah, absolutely. Like that’s the other thing I think we have to really be okay with is that, is that we have to let people, artists make the art that [00:31:45] is their response to this without being like, yeah. But you didn’t put in a statistic.
[00:31:49] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, but you didn’t say this, but you didn’t do, you know, because that’s also, I think that’s the, that’s the bit where we have to go as those who are working in this.
[00:31:55] And
[00:31:56] Ben Hurst: it’s difficult. It’s difficult of course, because people have been fighting for just to be [00:32:00] believed. Yes. For so long. And now we’re reaching the tipping point where it seems to be turning into, oh, people generally.
[00:32:06] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Believe that this is real and it’s happening.
[00:32:08] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:32:08] Ben Hurst: And people are starting to create art, the people who are fighting to be seen and heard of. Yeah. But don’t forget. Don’t forget. And [00:32:15] yeah, art doesn’t always do that, right? Yeah. Like it just,
[00:32:17] Maryam Pasha: it’s not
[00:32:17] Ben Hurst: like a report is what he is.
[00:32:18] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there have been artists who have been speaking up since the Dawns of time since their career started, and I can imagine they must feel frustrated that there are people now who can make a pretty penny [00:32:30] off their activism in the arts.
[00:32:31] Tori Tsui: Um, because. Perhaps now we are at a stage in society where I have, I have said there are risks to speaking out, but there is also a lot of credence in it and credibility and as we saw [00:32:45] over the last two years, if you don’t speak out, you get canceled. Yeah. You get boycotted, you get
[00:32:51] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:32:52] Maryam Pasha: People not here for that stuff.
[00:32:52] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. But also you have to, I’ve been thinking about, hi guys, we’ve got 10 minutes left now.
[00:32:57] Ben Hurst: Cool.
[00:32:57] Maryam Pasha: Thanks.
[00:32:58] Ben Hurst: And maybe flip to Columbia.
[00:32:59] Maryam Pasha: Okay. [00:33:00] Let’s do,
[00:33:00] Ben Hurst: do you want, oh yeah, I was gonna
[00:33:01] Maryam Pasha: say, okay. Yeah. So.
Santa Marta Explained
[00:33:03] Maryam Pasha: Earlier you mentioned Santa Marta and we kind of jumped over it, but let’s, let’s talk about it. What is that?
[00:33:07] Maryam Pasha: Where is that? What’s happening?
[00:33:09] Tori Tsui: Yeah, so what is that? What is that? What is that?
[00:33:12] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I do know it guys. I’m just,
[00:33:13] Tori Tsui: well, Santa Marta [00:33:15] is a northern coastal city in Colombia, which coincidentally, I find this so funny. Sorry to be tangential. A DH, we like it. We like the sign, but I actually sailed to Santa Marta.
[00:33:28] Tori Tsui: In 2019.
[00:33:29] Ben Hurst: That’s [00:33:30] so far from tangential. That’s like, well, directly related to that.
[00:33:33] Tori Tsui: Yeah, it is. Okay. Maybe my, my brain has tiny, tiny little tangents. But I went there in 2019 after trying to go to the cop
[00:33:41] Ben Hurst: right
[00:33:42] Tori Tsui: in Chile, which as you know, got moved to [00:33:45] Madrid. Um. So I found myself in Columbia and I spent a lot of time with climate organizers there and learned a lot about Latin American climate movements and just how fricking badass they are.
[00:33:55] Tori Tsui: They’re right. So cool and amazing. ’cause it was not just about the climate, it was [00:34:00] so rooted in social justice. Mm. So to see that the fossil fuel treaty is collaborating on a conference nearly seven years later. Hmm. In Columbia, in that very city where I learned so much about how to be a good organizer is [00:34:15] incredible.
[00:34:15] Tori Tsui: Right. So it was born out of the COP 30 in Bele.
[00:34:19] Maryam Pasha: Okay.
[00:34:19] Tori Tsui: And as I’ve alluded to before, Paris is struggling. Right. Paris,
[00:34:24] Maryam Pasha: Paris and Paris. And for people who, dunno, was another cop where a landmark climate agreement Yeah. Was [00:34:30] established. And if you wanna learn more about it, you can listen to our episode with Lawrence Tobia, who was one of the architects of the Paris Agreement.
[00:34:35] Maryam Pasha: Okay. Continue.
[00:34:36] Tori Tsui: We love Paris. We love Paris at the treaty. Mm-hmm. But we need something a little bit more robust.
[00:34:41] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. And it’s, it’s been many, many years now,
[00:34:43] Tori Tsui: so. Exactly. And [00:34:45] I think there was this. Uh, another moment of exasperation at the COP 30 when fossil fuels yet again had not been mentioned in key documents.
[00:34:54] Tori Tsui: Right? And there was this coalition between the Colombian and Dutch governments that [00:35:00] said, we are gonna bring a bunch of countries together and we are gonna do a conference that focuses on the phase out. The just transition of fossil fuels
[00:35:06] Maryam Pasha: explicitly,
[00:35:07] Tori Tsui: explicitly. And the fossil fuel treaty is like we are here to support.
[00:35:11] Tori Tsui: So to clarify, it’s not a fossil fuel treaty conference per [00:35:15] se. Okay. But we are key stakeholders in it, and we are key, um, negotiators. And I think the, the end goal of something like that is to have that roadmap to how we can phase out fossil fuels to provide countries with the. The [00:35:30] plans, the support, the infrastructure to take really bold climate action.
[00:35:33] Tori Tsui: Mm. And to say that this is the first one that’s really exciting. Yeah. And I think that, for lack of a better word, it gives me a lot of hope that people have peeled away from the UNF CCC space [00:35:45] and gone, we’re gonna do our own thing. ’cause we wanna, we really serious about this and we wanna make this work.
Just Transition Roadmap
[00:35:49] Maryam Pasha: I think, I mean, we talk about this on the podcast a lot, but this is why this for me sounds so cool because there is like, there is sometimes a gap, right? Mm-hmm. Where people know what. They should be done. Mm-hmm. Yeah. [00:36:00] And they know why it should be done. So we know we need to, to phase, we know we need to transition off fossil fuels or fa, what do we call it?
[00:36:06] Maryam Pasha: Phase out fossil fuels. We need to, so we know we need to phase out fossil fuels.
[00:36:10] Ben Hurst: Stop that.
[00:36:11] Maryam Pasha: And we know why. Right? Because
[00:36:13] Ben Hurst: it’s killing us all.
[00:36:14] Maryam Pasha: [00:36:15] Yeah. The how is where is the difficult piece? The how is where big oil comes in and goes. Well, you need us. How are you gonna do it? Like, and I think we, we can answer the how in small.
[00:36:25] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Like we can answer it in communities, in specific countries and specific context. Countries [00:36:30] have done that. The idea to be able to answer the how in a way that works for the, the world, the globe. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And is just, I think will be like a missing piece of the puzzle.
[00:36:40] Tori Tsui: I agree. And I think that’s.
[00:36:41] Tori Tsui: The key word here is just transition. Like how do we [00:36:45] allow space for say, global south countries? Yeah. Who have growing economies to be able to afford a transition and make sure that nobody gets left behind. Mm. And given the time to phase out, because that’s a very costly thing to do. Yes. Yes. And I think that’s why.
[00:36:58] Tori Tsui: We need to also emphasize [00:37:00] that there is a historic and continued responsibility of global north countries, those most richest, those who have the biggest, um, carbon emissions outputs to take greater responsibility for the just transition. Mm-hmm. That [00:37:15] being said, I think it’s really, really important to clarify that this conference is not an act of charity.
[00:37:21] Tori Tsui: It’s, it’s an obligation. It is an obligation for, for big countries. Big polluting countries, rich countries to do right by countries in the [00:37:30] global south.
[00:37:30] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. And I think the thing we never talk about, right, is that the leapfrogging over dirty fossil fuels for countries who are still developing and their economies and is sometimes better for them.
[00:37:44] Maryam Pasha: But [00:37:45] actually we’ve been sold this narrative that if you have natural resources, you have to exploit them.
[00:37:50] Ben Hurst: Sure.
[00:37:51] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. You have to extract how you gonna make money at, unless you are a colonizer.
[00:37:55] Maryam Pasha: Mm,
[00:37:55] Maryam Pasha: you’ve never benefited from exploitation.
[00:37:57] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:37:57] Maryam Pasha: Yep. You look at all the natural resources [00:38:00] in any way. Yeah.
[00:38:00] Maryam Pasha: Countries that are natural resource rich in the global south, and actually, except for a small 1% of those countries who have extracted and benefited the ma, vast majority of those people have never seen a penny of that natural resource wealth. [00:38:15] So I think also giving this plan, yes, not giving, but developing this plan with people from all around the world.
[00:38:23] Maryam Pasha: Also allows us to counter that really harmful narrative.
[00:38:25] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Yeah. That is a very, very endemic narrative that I think I’ve seen. And not [00:38:30] just within the climate movement, but just from like Lays people Yes. Who kind of go, but, oh, but what about this? Like, you know, they, they need to be able to make their money with fossil fuels too.
[00:38:38] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:38:38] Maryam Pasha: And it’s understandable. Yeah. Like, yes, sure. We, we, we, you know, if you are in countries that actually don’t have electricity
[00:38:44] Tori Tsui: Mm.
[00:38:44] Maryam Pasha: You know, [00:38:45] yes. We can’t come in and say, well, you can’t have that. Because it might be, but the, the, the reality is that that’s not the conversation. Yeah,
[00:38:50] Tori Tsui: yeah, yeah.
[00:38:51] Maryam Pasha: The conversation is actually like, well, you know what, instead of spending 10 years building a gas pipeline Yeah.
[00:38:57] Maryam Pasha: That will mean you’re in debt to whatever other massive country. Sure. [00:39:00] You can get electricity years faster if you install solar.
[00:39:04] Tori Tsui: Yeah. I think you just have to ask that question, like, who is actually benefiting from this? Yes. And when you start to follow the money, you realize it’s not these countries.
[00:39:10] Maryam Pasha: Exactly.
[00:39:11] Tori Tsui: And there’s somebody else who’s profiting from it. But I, I, I [00:39:15] really do feel this. Deep sense of excitement and hope for Santa Marta. I think it’s something that’s long overdue. Yes. Um, and I think that perhaps that length that we’ve been waiting for something like this might make people feel a little bit frustrated, but as I always [00:39:30] say, and will constantly believe, every fraction of a degree matters and it is literally never too late.
[00:39:35] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Like I think, yeah, there are tipping points that we’re passing. We can’t deny that, but I would much rather. Think about all we can save than nothing at all. [00:39:45] Agreed. So, yeah, it’s exciting. Um, and a lot of hope rests on it. And we want part artists to be part of this revolution.
[00:39:52] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
Culture After Fossil Fuels
[00:39:53] Ben Hurst: And in, in that vein, maybe just to wrap up here, I’m wondering what, what you think.
[00:39:58] Ben Hurst: Let, let’s say all of these things go [00:40:00] perfectly, they all go to plan. Exactly. What does culture look like after that moment? What does it look like, like for us to have a, a thriving climate culture? In in the world.
[00:40:11] Tori Tsui: I think my mind immediately went to thinking about sponsorship again, ’cause [00:40:15] it’s something that we spoke about and I just don’t want to see them infiltrating our.
[00:40:21] Tori Tsui: Arts institutions and spaces. I want art to be free from the constraints of this sort of, uh, wrath so that people can [00:40:30] create freely and meaningfully. And honestly, and I think back to how we had tobacco conferences sponsoring, uh, sorry. We had the tobacco industry sponsoring like Formula One and WHO conferences and we’ve gotten to [00:40:45] that point in culture where we’ve gone, that’s really weird.
[00:40:47] Tori Tsui: And that’s. Dodgy. Yeah. I want us to create that culture where we just shame these guys. We are like, you guys are gross. Oh, we see. Get out. The
[00:40:54] Maryam Pasha: idea that this is like absolutely ridiculous.
[00:40:55] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like absurd. Yeah. I want us to get to a point where people [00:41:00] go, no, no, no, no. Like your average person in the street can go, that’s, that’s just wrong, yeah’s, plain wrong.
[00:41:06] Tori Tsui: Um, and, and that’s for me what I, I would like to see and, and also one where we address global inequality as well. Mm-hmm. I think that. The [00:41:15] arts industries, while I’ve kind of harked on about how powerful it is, how important it is, there is also a lot of inequality within that. Right. And there are voices that are being propelled and pushed forward.
[00:41:24] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm. Much further than other voices. And actually it’s those communities of color, low income [00:41:30] communities, people who are making more political art, who don’t get those liberties to do what they want. And I imagine a, a culture where. Those people are actually spearheaded and put front and center. Mm-hmm.
[00:41:43] Tori Tsui: Because they’re the ones who [00:41:45] I think are leading the way and speaking the charge. And I actually had a rant at my ex about this who. I kind of went on this rant about how I really believe that like black and queer people are like shaping culture [00:42:00] and people actually pushing the boundaries of what’s possible.
[00:42:02] Tori Tsui: And art always have been. Exactly. And how frustrated I am that we just get another like really sad, like indie song for some from some white like guitarist or whatever, you know? And I’m, no, hey, I still listen to those guys too. Yeah, [00:42:15] me too. Yeah. Shout
[00:42:16] Ben Hurst: still the James shout us all the Jameses.
[00:42:17] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:42:17] Tori Tsui: Literally all the jameses. But I’m just like. For me, the boundaries of what’s possible have always been pushed by those most marginalized in society. Yeah, of course.
Artist Recommendations
[00:42:27] Tori Tsui: And um, I think there was like this one question that I saw you guys write down, which is just like, who have you been listening to lately as a lot of rap?
[00:42:37] Tori Tsui: Yeah. A lot of hip hop.
[00:42:38] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:39] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Can
[00:42:40] Maryam Pasha: you It would be, I was gonna actually say it would be a great place to end if you could give us some, put [00:42:45] us onto, to some, some artists recommendations for us all to listen to going forward.
[00:42:49] Tori Tsui: Well, I’m gonna give a shout out to my friend Louis vi. ’cause he’s, yeah. We love
[00:42:53] Maryam Pasha: Louis vi.
[00:42:53] Tori Tsui: Yeah. Because Louis, do I know stuff.
[00:42:56] Ben Hurst: We
[00:42:56] Tori Tsui: love Louis because Lou’s doing awesome stuff. He, yes, agreed. And I, [00:43:00] I, I remember when I first met Louie. He was just like, this is how I see things. There is no negotiating. He’s like, this is how I’m gonna hold myself as an artist. Yeah. So shout out to Louis. Um, my friend also Kieran, Madam Gandhi, she also does amazing work with Earth Percent.
[00:43:14] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm. And [00:43:15] she featured on the, um, nature as an artist playlist. Mm-hmm. Where they kind of mixed nature sounds with artistry. So I wanted to shout out those to you guys ’cause they’re doing awesome work. Um, and also. I’m, I’m gonna say I’m a big bad Bunny fan. [00:43:30]
[00:43:31] Ben Hurst: Surprise, surprise,
[00:43:33] Tori Tsui: steward,
[00:43:33] Ben Hurst: authority.
[00:43:34] Tori Tsui: And it’s, it’s funny, it was cool
[00:43:35] Maryam Pasha: before, it was
[00:43:36] Tori Tsui: cool.
[00:43:36] Tori Tsui: Before it was cool. Yeah. Before it was cool. And, and I also, I love Kendrick,
[00:43:42] Ben Hurst: my guy.
[00:43:42] Tori Tsui: I love Kendrick.
[00:43:44] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. [00:43:45] Yep.
Everything Is Connected
[00:43:45] Maryam Pasha: Um, I as predicted as predicted, this was an. Incredible conversation. Yeah. Great. You know, many years in the making. Mm-hmm. Um, I think that it shows to me, and I hope when you’re listening, you feel this too, that these things that are often seen as so different from each other, like oil and art and campaigning, and politics and culture and geopolitics and all these things are actually not so separate that when you are, if you’re looking at the world as a whole, these things are just interwoven and you can, yeah.
[00:44:18] Maryam Pasha: Think about them in that way and still create incredible art.
[00:44:22] Tori Tsui: Absolutely. And I always have to reiterate, everything is connected.
[00:44:28] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:29] Tori Tsui: Everything [00:44:30] is connected and art and culture and fossil fuels and climate are no exception. So like you, my plea to anyone listening who relates to any of those.
[00:44:40] Tori Tsui: Intersections, you know, get involved. Endorse the fossil [00:44:45] fuel treaty, sign our letter, and yeah, just keep making art that speaks about the time that we’re in.
[00:44:52] Ben Hurst: Sorry. Thank you so much for joining us.
[00:44:54] Tori Tsui: Thanks guys.
[00:44:54] Maryam Pasha: Yes.
Final Thanks And Credits
[00:44:54] Ben Hurst: Oh, and remember, stay curious.[00:45:00]
[00:45:00] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for joining us this week. We really hope you’ve enjoyed this episode.
[00:45:03] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s release. While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:45:11] Maryam Pasha: Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the Poll [00:45:15]
[00:45:15] Ben Hurst: Executive, produced by Josie Coulter,
[00:45:17] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshti.
[00:45:19] Ben Hurst: Music, also by Ben Beheshti,
[00:45:21] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Izzy Gladstone,
[00:45:24] Ben Hurst: curation by Deisha Chandra.
[00:45:26] Maryam Pasha: Hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:45:27] Ben Hurst: I’m Marion Pasha.
[00:45:29] Maryam Pasha: And [00:45:30] remember,
[00:45:30] Ben Hurst: stay curious.
