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From the civil rights movement to global stages stacked with the world’s biggest artists, campaigner, activist, and author Tori Tsui joins Climate Curious to connect the dots between music and climate. Tune in to explore the intentional overwhelm tactics used by Big Oil, how sponsorships help them gain a “social license” to pollute, and which pop stars are using their platform to do something about it.
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Welcome
00:50 Why fossil fuels matter
01:28 Music as social change
02:03 Why climate feels different
03:26 Climate justice bigger picture
06:00 Overwhelm and power of art
06:36 Pop star influence example
07:31 Big Oil in culture
08:22 Sponsorship and social license
09:32 Artists pushing back
10:45 Closing and credits
Welcome
[00:00:00] Maryam Pasha: Welcome to Climate Curious Quickies, bite-sized nuggets of Climate Goodness. From our TEDx experts in under 10 minutes
[00:00:09] Ben Hurst: in this week’s climate, curious, we are asking, how are pop stars burst in big oil’s? Culture [00:00:15] bubble from Taylor Swift to Cold Play and Billy Eilish. We are joined by campaigner, activist and author Tori Choi to ask which pop stars are using their platforms for action on climate change.
[00:00:27] Ben Hurst: Why musicians and artists are perfectly [00:00:30] placed to push back against the big oil propaganda machine and why it’s right that we asked these questions when you didn’t even know that you favorite festival was sponsored by big oil, blood money on how pop stars can burst the big oil culture bubble. [00:00:45] Here’s Tory Choi.
[00:00:46] Ben Hurst: Stay curious.
Why Fossil Fuels Matter
[00:00:50] Tori Tsui: I think if you’re gonna talk about any form of injustice that we’re facing at the moment, fossil fuels are kind of like, they’re like the blood that pumps this very corrupt heart that [00:01:00] is, you know, dictating the way that the world is going at the moment. So I think that everybody should be talking about fossil fuels, and I think that music is an amazing conduit to communicate some of these ideas when the facts and figures don’t really.
[00:01:12] Tori Tsui: Work,
[00:01:13] Ben Hurst: and this is, this is interesting ’cause [00:01:15] campaigning is how I knew you. I, I, I’ve, that’s the work of yours that I’ve been following.
[00:01:20] Tori Tsui: Mm-hmm.
[00:01:20] Ben Hurst: And so the music stuff seemed like it had like completely come out of left field. Like it Yeah. To me it just looked super random.
[00:01:26] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:01:27] Ben Hurst: But I guess.
Music as Social Change
[00:01:28] Ben Hurst: When you think about it, music in culture has been part of every significant
[00:01:34] Tori Tsui: Absolutely.
[00:01:34] Ben Hurst: Shift historically. Mm-hmm. Every significant moment of like social change or social impact. I feel like music has played a part in it and so that’s cool that like you are getting the [00:01:45] opportunity to match those two things together. Does it feel like it’s, is it, is it a big movement that’s going on? Like is there lots of stuff happening there?
[00:01:53] Tori Tsui: There are a lot of things that are happening. I think to kind of go back to your point about. Music always [00:02:00] being there when we are witnessing social and political change.
Why Climate Feels Different
[00:02:03] Tori Tsui: It’s a very interesting thing thinking about climate in that landscape because when I think about the music that was released, kind of, um, supporting the civil rights movement, like the end to the Vietnam War, talking about what’s been happening in Palestine, they feel very sort of, um.
[00:02:20] Tori Tsui: Organic and they feel very, you know, charged and integrated into the times that we’re living in that it almost feels difficult to pry apart the music [00:02:30] from the social and political change we’re seeing with climate. It feels like it’s a little bit trickier, and the reason why I think that is because.
[00:02:38] Tori Tsui: Climate can appear obscure to the average person, and they might not necessarily see who’s most culpable. And the facts [00:02:45] and the figures can be hard to translate into artistry, but that’s not to say it doesn’t have a place. I just think it needs to incubate a bit more and it needs more momentum. That being said.
[00:02:56] Tori Tsui: We do have a lot of people who are spearheading sustainability. [00:03:00] We have your Billie Eilish, your Coldplay, auroras, Jacob Colliers, all of these artists who use their platforms in really great ways. But at the same time, and I, I would be curious to hear what you guys think. We’re at a point in history and time, at least for me as a campaigner.
[00:03:14] Tori Tsui: I [00:03:15] walk into rooms and I talk about climate and. There’s almost like this sort of moment of, Hmm, but what about everything else?
[00:03:22] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it is bigger than climate.
[00:03:24] Tori Tsui: Exactly. There’s lot of stuff
[00:03:25] Ben Hurst: happening. Yeah,
[00:03:25] Tori Tsui: exactly.
Climate Justice Bigger Picture
[00:03:26] Tori Tsui: And I think that’s why I still really emphasize that the work I do is climate justice oriented, because it really includes every single thing that we’re seeing, the rise of fascism, the rise of like.
[00:03:36] Tori Tsui: Big tech and AI, authoritarianism like genocides, wars, militarism, it’s all part of it. That climate, and I write about this in my book, climate in and of [00:03:45] itself does not feel like an all encompassing enough word to describe. The actual crisis that we’re living through.
[00:03:51] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. I, I couldn’t agree more. I mean, there’s two things I’ve seen recently that have probably really hit this nail on the head for me where I felt like Yes, yes.
[00:03:59] Maryam Pasha: This is what we’re [00:04:00] talking about. Mm. Um, one of them is, uh, one of the videos is Zach Polanski made for the Green Party, where he’s known. If you guys have seen it, he’s on a beach.
[00:04:09] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I’ve only seen the ones of him walking down the road. Favorite one. I’m
[00:04:14] Tori Tsui: the
[00:04:14] Ben Hurst: one with [00:04:15] Domi Palm.
[00:04:15] Tori Tsui: Did like a little
[00:04:16] trend.
[00:04:17] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, no, this is actually kind of. It’s ki Let tell you, let me paint the picture. So, Z Ancy is on like a, it’s obviously the, one of the coasts of the UK ’cause it’s like Pebbly and Stormy and it’s, it’s a British sea suicide and he’s in his like [00:04:30] waterproofs and whatever, and he is like, um, I met a guy here the other day who was carrying a gun and it immediately hits you ’cause you’re like, wait a second.
[00:04:38] Maryam Pasha: I thought the green party was gonna be talking about like coastal erosion. Why are we talking about this? And I asked, and he asked the guy. [00:04:45] Why were you carrying a gun? And the guy said to shoot people coming in on the small boats.
[00:04:49] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:04:50] Maryam Pasha: Which is what a start the video. And, um, anyway, the video goes on for a bit and then later on he says, now you might be wondering why is the green party talking [00:05:00] about this?
[00:05:01] Maryam Pasha: And he says, this line, the same thing, poisoning our rivers is poisoning this man’s mind.
[00:05:07] Tori Tsui: Mm, absolutely.
[00:05:08] Maryam Pasha: And I was like, I not seen a better articulation of what we are up against
[00:05:12] Tori Tsui: mm-hmm.
[00:05:13] Maryam Pasha: Than this. And I think it was the same thing [00:05:15] recently about some, someone was writing on LinkedIn. I can’t remember who, unfortunately, about how, if you’re feeling like you’re working in climate and you’re seeing all this, I’m gonna say this word now and it’s gonna, we can choose to cut it.
[00:05:26] Maryam Pasha: And you’re seeing all the Epstein files being released and you’re feeling like, [00:05:30] what am I doing? Overwhelmed. You know, the person said, and I wish I could remember who it was. Uh, these are all the same things woven into the same system. Absolutely. So, so whatever thread you are pulling on, you are pulling on threads to unweave the system.
[00:05:42] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. So I think [00:05:45] it’s this, this feel, sorry. I think this feeling of, if it’s bigger than us, it’s interesting that people come at you with this. I think it just speaks to how we’re feeling overwhelmed and how that is intentional.
[00:05:59] Tori Tsui: Absolutely. Absolutely. [00:06:00] Yep.
Overwhelm and Power of Art
[00:06:00] Tori Tsui: I would say that there is an intentional overwhelm.
[00:06:03] Tori Tsui: That’s always been a tool of fascism is also to squash our imagination, which is why I think the arts are so important during this time, and that’s why I think there’s also this real. Um, [00:06:15] gravitational pull for me to work in the arts because there are no better messengers than artists. And I think they have such cultural power as well, and they have the financial power in many ways.
[00:06:27] Tori Tsui: I’m not talk necessarily talking about the smaller artists, but when you think [00:06:30] about the big artists and the industry, that’s,
[00:06:32] Ben Hurst: they create industries wherever they go, they carry an industry.
[00:06:35] Tori Tsui: Exactly, exactly.
Pop Star Influence Example
[00:06:36] Tori Tsui: I’ll give you an example of something that. Um, that I remembered, which was that I remember when Taylor Swift, I think she must have been doing her s tour, there was this discussion about how h and m created this display of all the clothes that could mimic Taylor’s outfits on the S tour and it like boosted their re sales and revenue.
[00:06:54] Tori Tsui: I mean, every city that Taylor Swift has gone to is apparently it’s just like driven up revenue of these places. Mm-hmm. Um. [00:07:00] Not to condone h and m or any of these things, but I think it just goes to show like these, the certain level of power that these artists have and oh my God, if someone like Taylor Swift decided that she was gonna be a climate body overnight mm-hmm.
[00:07:11] Tori Tsui: Things would change, you know, things would
[00:07:13] Maryam Pasha: really change. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we [00:07:15] know this historically, right? Because if we look at. If we look at all those mo movement movements that you mentioned before, the civil rights movements, I think about things like Woodstock.
[00:07:24] Tori Tsui: Yeah.
[00:07:24] Maryam Pasha: And the peace movement.
[00:07:25] Maryam Pasha: I mean, you cannot think about those moments in history without thinking about the music.
[00:07:29] Tori Tsui: [00:07:30] Yep.
[00:07:30] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Big Oil in Culture
[00:07:31] Ben Hurst: And I, I, I wanted to come to this. Part of the conversation. ’cause there was something interesting you said earlier about the idea that, uh, culture or music changes things. Culture changes things, yeah.
[00:07:43] Ben Hurst: And that it’s really important [00:07:45] for, uh, the climate crisis to be a part of that cultural conversation.
[00:07:49] Tori Tsui: Absolutely.
[00:07:50] Ben Hurst: But I also think it’s really interesting ’cause it, it almost feels like we’re a little bit late to the conversation, because from my understanding, maybe you can correct me here, big oil [00:08:00] has been invested in culture, right?
[00:08:01] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Like the, the investment has been there, just not. In, in the right direction. In terms of like miseducation, in terms of gaslighting, in terms of covering over stuff that’s been happening. Absolutely. Yeah. I’m wondering if you’ve got any examples of like that kind of [00:08:15] stuff happening? ’cause I, I feel like it happens all the time.
[00:08:17] Ben Hurst: It does, but I really struggle to put my finger on it when I see it happening.
[00:08:20] Tori Tsui: Yeah. It’s, it’s endemic.
Sponsorship and Social License
[00:08:22] Tori Tsui: I think sponsorship is such. A huge area to tackle because it’s not just the music industry, it’s sponsoring museums and arts and cultural institutions. Um, but we are seeing grassroots movements who are actively fighting against that.
[00:08:36] Tori Tsui: And you are seeing artists who are also pushing up against having something like fossil fuel sponsorship. I kind of wanna, you know, elaborate to people [00:08:45] why. That is the case that we’re seeing fossil fuel companies sponsor these events and it’s a way of obscuring their responsibility. You know, I’m sure you guys have spoken about the social license, the justification to exist, their cultural relevance, and also I think there’s [00:09:00] something to be said about how when you have a fossil fuel, um, companies sponsoring the arts.
[00:09:05] Tori Tsui: It just makes them more palatable and more pleasing. And it feels like if you’re to attack the fossil fuel sponsorship, it’s, it’s akin to attacking art itself.
[00:09:13] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:09:14] Tori Tsui: [00:09:15] You’re taking, you’re taking, you’re taking away the resource from art. Exactly. And that is the thing that is so tragic, and it makes me ask, okay, but then what is the point of culture and art, if not to take a stand.
[00:09:27] Tori Tsui: Create change in society and someone unfortunately [00:09:30] has to pay the price. And more often than not, it’s the smaller artists. Yes.
Artists Pushing Back
[00:09:32] Tori Tsui: But I think about the times that artists have stepped away and said, for instance, no to Barclays who have been sponsoring lots of Live Nation festivals. And in fact, it got to the point where they actually stopped that sponsorship because of the backlash.
[00:09:46] Tori Tsui: Yeah. So Live the Nation is no longer sponsored by Barclays. I also did this activation, um. With the Fossil Fuel Treaty and massive attack last summer where the Fossil fuel treaty was being endorsed by Massive attack. And we’d found out just a few days [00:10:00] before I was due to go on stage and speak at their concert that Barclays had just signed a deal with the co-op live arena.
[00:10:05] Tori Tsui: And of course knowing the guys from Massive attack, they were like, absolutely not, but we are legally tied to doing this. And so I was just like, I’m gonna say something and, and what? [00:10:15] What that kind of was, was this, you know, there was this moment of tension friction, me thinking, oh my God, am I such a hypocrite going on stage at this arena that’s being sponsored by Barclays and all of these things.
[00:10:25] Tori Tsui: But we are naturally hypocrites in the system. And it doesn’t matter if you’re a small [00:10:30] artist, a big artist, a campaigner, a, a concert goer, you can take a stand against things in a way that feels, um. Accessible to you within
[00:10:39] Maryam Pasha: your reach. Yeah.
[00:10:39] Tori Tsui: Yeah, and it’s, it’s all about what sort of level of power you have and what you can do with that power.[00:10:45]
Closing and Credits
[00:10:45] Ben Hurst: Thanks for listening to this quickie.
[00:10:47] Maryam Pasha: This episode was created by our superstar podcast team at Telex London. Until next time,
[00:10:52] Ben Hurst: stay curious.
