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What’s the reality of life in West Texas oil country? In response to Season 2 of Taylor Sheridan’s ‘Landman’ starring Billy Bob Thornton, we asked the head of RMI’s Oil & Gas Solutions Initiative and a narrative change expert to help us sort fact from fiction. What’s accurate and what’s inaccurate in this oily, macho, TV drama series? Join Climate Curious co-host Maryam Pasha with guests Debbie Gordon from RMI and Lucy Stone from Climate Spring as we unite climate science with climate culture to unpick what’s really going on behind-the-scenes of ‘Landman’.
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Introduction
00:36 Overview of Landman
02:01 Introducing the guests
03:06 Debbie Gordon’s insights on the oil and gas industry
06:32 Debbie Gordon’s background and experience
08:32 Human and environmental costs of oil and gas
11:58 Methane and its impact on climate change
15:06 Solutions to methane leakage
17:03 Texas and renewable energy
19:30 The push for geothermal energy
20:07 Cultural reflections on climate narratives
21:11 Billy Bob Thornton’s controversial role
21:34 The oil industry’s perspective
23:19 The responsibility of storytelling
26:43 The role of advertising in media
33:25 Global perspectives on oil and gas
34:20 Recommendations
37:39 Closing
[00:00:00] Introduction
[00:00:00] Lucy Stone: Maybe there’s a kind of lag in popular culture, catching up with where the industry is moving and the transition, but that’s also the messiness of the period we’re
[00:00:10] Ben Hurst: in at the moment. This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are [00:00:15] bored, scared, or confused by climate change.
[00:00:18] Maryam Pasha: I’m Marion Pasha, the director and curator at Telex London, and the co-host of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:24] Ben Hurst: Hi, I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities [00:00:30] can look like and self-confessed climate norming.
[00:00:36] Overview of Landman
[00:00:36] Maryam Pasha: Hello and welcome to Climate Curious with season two of Taylor Sheridan’s Landman starring Billy Bob Thornton hitting our TV screens. [00:00:45] And if you’re in London, you may have seen it on the side of buses, which means it’s a thing. Millions of viewers will, again, dive into the drama of West Texas oil country.
[00:00:53] Maryam Pasha: But what does this show actually get right about the oil and gas industry and what does it leave out? And how does [00:01:00] oil propaganda sneak into our TV shows? And specifically this show. Joining us to delve deeper into these questions and more are Rocky Mountain Institute’s, Debbie Gordon and Climate Springs, Lucy Stone.
[00:01:11] Maryam Pasha: But before we get to our guests, two things you should know. First, what [00:01:15] is a landman? A Landman is a professional who negotiates with landowners to secure the rights for land use, most commonly mineral rights for oil and gas exploration and production. These are key players in the energy industry, and they’re responsible for [00:01:30] conducting research on land titles, ensuring leases are in place and securing the necessary agreements for companies to develop the land.
[00:01:37] Maryam Pasha: And importantly, they are uniquely an American phenomenon. And then what is the show Landman about, in case you haven’t seen it? Well, the crux of the story [00:01:45] is that Landman is a volatile interplay between the high stakes ruthless world of the West Texas oil industry and the personal family drama of the protagonist.
[00:01:55] Maryam Pasha: Tommy Norris played by Billy Bob Thornton, who was a crisis executive for an [00:02:00] independent oil. Okay.
[00:02:01] Introducing the guests
[00:02:01] Maryam Pasha: Now that we’ve got that straight, let me introduce our guests. Debbie Gordon is a senior principal at Rocky Mountain Institute’s Climate Intelligence Program, where she leads the oil and gas solutions initiative.
[00:02:12] Maryam Pasha: Previously, she served as the Energy and [00:02:15] Climate Program director at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Lucy Stone is the founder and executive director of Climate springing, a global organization that supports and funds the creation of media, particularly film and television, to change how society [00:02:30] views and responds to the climate crisis.
[00:02:32] Maryam Pasha: So let’s get started, and let me say that this episode will have spoilers. So if you don’t want spoilers, go watch the show and then come back. Alright, so I really, I’m actually so excited to have this conversation ’cause I [00:02:45] love good TV and I was very excited to like get into this show and I will reserve how I felt about it till later.
[00:02:51] Maryam Pasha: But I wanna, I wanna start, um, with you, Debbie, actually, because, and I guess maybe it’s worth saying. We may, there may [00:03:00] be spoilers in this episode, so yeah, like, let’s, let’s just say there will be, there will be spoilers in this episode.
[00:03:06] Debbie Gordon’s insights on the oil and gas industry
[00:03:06] Maryam Pasha: Let’s start, is this what it’s like, is this accurate? What does landmine get right about the oil and gas industry?
[00:03:14] Debbie Gordon: Yeah. [00:03:15] Well obviously it’s a dramatization as any TV would be. So, you know, at the frequency in the, um. The, the intensity of what’s happening, it’s packaging it all up like it happens every day, which obviously [00:03:30] isn’t the case, but what it gets right is this is a really difficult and risky business. As Cooper finds out in the first episode of season one, you know, gas.
[00:03:39] Debbie Gordon: You know, a valve is stuck and he forces it open and there’s a huge explosion and everyone but him [00:03:45] dies. So, you know. Does that happen every day? No, but no. But gas is really hazardous and it can be deadly when it leaks and beyond explosions. I don’t wanna spoil it too much, but [00:04:00] there is a really dramatic part of season two with an impurity in gas that can be deadly.
[00:04:06] Debbie Gordon: And there are carcinogens in gas like benzene. So you end up with, you know, over time even not like in a moment’s [00:04:15] explosion that, you know, people get sick. Workers get sick, communities get sick. I mean, it’s really a, um, I think one thing it gets right is that it’s a sometimes. Striking to me that we can go to the gas [00:04:30] station, any, or the petrol station any day of the week, and know that there’s gonna be gas there, give gasoline there.
[00:04:35] Debbie Gordon: Given that, you know, this is a business that is difficult.
[00:04:41] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I mean this is, I think the thing that you just see in the [00:04:45] show right away is I, I was thinking, you know, I was going into it wondering, is this gonna be very glamorous and. And, and full caveat, I have not watched every single episode, but as far as I am in, I don’t, I’m not [00:05:00] like excited to go work in oil and gas.
[00:05:02] Maryam Pasha: I think this, it sounds like a terrible, terrible job, and I don’t want anyone to have it.
[00:05:07] Debbie Gordon: Yeah, I think it’s like any industry though, you know, if you’re in the steel industry, it’s not gonna be glamorous either. So, you know, it’s a, it’s a good look at [00:05:15] industrialization and what it lurks behind the comforts that we all enjoy so much.
[00:05:20] Debbie Gordon: I think another thing that’s really different that that’s, that’s true to true to form that it shows is that. This is a look at M Texs, [00:05:30] this oil company that happens to be an independent oil company and not all oil and gas assets or infrastructure or operators are the same. It’s a very, um. Heterogeneous business.
[00:05:44] Debbie Gordon: There’s [00:05:45] no standard oil. There are international oil companies. The big ones like you know, BP in, in Britain, there are national oil companies like Aramco. There are large and small independents. So MT techs is not even common for an independent. And then there are these [00:06:00] wildcatters, you know, that just go.
[00:06:02] Debbie Gordon: And then the show introduces some of that. His son Cooper’s a little bit of becoming a wildcatter. He doesn’t have a business behind him. He’s just like. Doing something, you know, on these leases. So the idea that. We can [00:06:15] pin problems on the oil industry loses a lot, I think, in terms of who you’re dealing with and I think that this show kind of gives you kind of a look at that, but to understand that it’s, it’s a global [00:06:30] enterprise with a lot of diversity in it.
[00:06:32] Debbie Gordon’s background and experience
[00:06:32] Maryam Pasha: So when we were chatting before, you said to me, I’ve lived it, and I wanna ask you then like, what is your background? Like, how do, what do you come to this with? Like, what you know, what have you been doing? Yeah,
[00:06:42] Debbie Gordon: so. I mean, it’s a, [00:06:45] it’s an interesting arc. I think a lot of what we decide to study. And what we decide to become is shaped, you know, as we’re growing up.
[00:06:52] Debbie Gordon: So in high school I was getting my driver’s license when we had the second oil crisis in America. So [00:07:00] here I was 15 years old, sitting in lines at the pump for hours. So that’s certainly. And I was always a mathy kid, but that certainly got me interested in energy, like what is going on here? So I went to school and studied chemical engineering and worked in a [00:07:15] hydrogen lab, a hydrogen catalysis lab.
[00:07:17] Debbie Gordon: When the prices during the second oil crisis, the prices were really high and all these alternatives were coming outta the fore. But I graduated right in 82 and the price plummeted. ’cause this market is really volatile. Like [00:07:30] that’s another thing you’re hearing, like the radio when Tommy is driving as the price of oil today, you know, like this, it changes and yo-yos all over the place and I’d live that.
[00:07:40] Debbie Gordon: And so I went to work in the oil industry. Those were the jobs then. [00:07:45] And I’m thinking to myself, I wanna know how they think. Like I really wanna understand this industry. And so I ended up, before I graduated, worked a summer job. As a roustabout, that’s the people that go and maintain the fields. And I [00:08:00] worked in a gas, natural gas pipeline company.
[00:08:04] Debbie Gordon: And then I took a job upstream, like the land I work with Landmen. Um, I took a job upstream doing production. For oil and just lived [00:08:15] around all of these hazards and risks. They were, at least for me, they were like so apparent that there was a cost to what we were all doing. And we were doing it ’cause it was demand for what the product was.
[00:08:28] Debbie Gordon: But this didn’t come easily. [00:08:30] This was, this was hard. Yeah.
[00:08:32] Human and environmental costs of oil and gas
[00:08:32] Maryam Pasha: I mean, one of the things I was thinking about when I was watching this is we’re working on climate. We’re always thinking about the climate impacts of oil and gas, but my background is actually in human rights and immigration and, and it really, I think, [00:08:45] made me start thinking about some of the human costs of just like the extraction.
[00:08:49] Maryam Pasha: And the work and the kinds of communities that are often the majority of the labor force are people who maybe don’t have other options or there aren’t other options [00:09:00] locally. Like how does the show depict that? Is it accurate?
[00:09:03] Debbie Gordon: Well, I mean, to be fair. Most oil and gas are not extracted in the middle of a city.
[00:09:09] Maryam Pasha: Okay?
[00:09:10] Debbie Gordon: Like, first of all, you just wouldn’t be able to get permits to do that. Like it, it [00:09:15] would be too hard. And so, and it’s the flip side, a lot of oil and gas where it’s been found where the pools of these resources are. They don’t build urban centers around them. Now this changes though because once you [00:09:30] extract the oil and gas, it usually goes toward, at least in the US, toward a coast to be refined.
[00:09:35] Debbie Gordon: So people live all around refineries and you know, gas plants. So you end up. Moving this stuff and further doing things to it [00:09:45] much closer to people. So there are risks through the whole supply chain, even though this really only shows you the taking it outta the ground, the extraction part. Right. So we talked a little bit about what it gets right.
[00:09:55] Debbie Gordon: What does it
[00:09:55] Maryam Pasha: get wrong?
[00:09:57] Debbie Gordon: Well, I think climate, and hopefully Lucy [00:10:00] will raise this too, but climate, um, gas is mostly methane. So oil and gas come outta the ground together. People often don’t realize that you don’t just get oil, you don’t just get gas. It’s mostly kind of combined underground and that gas associated with the [00:10:15] oil is mostly methane, which is very potent greenhouse gas over 80 times more potent than carbon dioxide.
[00:10:22] Debbie Gordon: And, but what they don’t mention, there’s a little bit of like an acknowledgement. From the lawyer that there are climate [00:10:30] impacts. Here, it’s like little bit, but that’s the impacts of us burning it, like using it like driving. There’s no mention of how the industry accelerates climate change because when they leak their gas.
[00:10:41] Debbie Gordon: And they’re putting this 80 x gas into the atmosphere. They’re [00:10:45] actually pushing climate change much farther, much faster now. And that I think is a little bit not there. The other thing is, um, it comes up a little bit in the show, but not quite that these assets are traded all the time. If there are mergers [00:11:00] and acquisitions, like no one really keeps this stuff for very long.
[00:11:03] Debbie Gordon: Companies are in and out and as a field depletes, that’s why this independent is kind of like not in the best asset they’re in. You could see the infrastructure is like old and leaky and having problems. [00:11:15] Um, but what they don’t raise at all the end of this, where does this all end up? And often these things get orphaned.
[00:11:22] Debbie Gordon: Hmm. What does that mean? Orphan means no one owns them anymore. Or they go down the chain so far that like a mom and pop, [00:11:30] it will be in their backyard. This abandoned all but abandoned well will be operating, but it will be a marginal well that really isn’t maintained very well. That’s bringing in the littlest bit of money that could be leaking a lot, and then when it goes farther, then you, it’s not [00:11:45] operating at all and it’s just sitting there orphaned and abandoned.
[00:11:48] Debbie Gordon: And so there’s a real arc to this industry that obviously is not seen in this that has real impact for people.
[00:11:56] Maryam Pasha: Now.
[00:11:58] Methane and its impact on climate change
[00:11:58] Maryam Pasha: Let’s talk a little bit about methane and then we’ll come back to the show. You talked a little bit about how it’s a super pollutant, it’s a times more potent than CO2. What does that mean?
[00:12:06] Maryam Pasha: It means that it, it, it’s heating our planet faster for people who are not as familiar with it.
[00:12:11] Debbie Gordon: Yeah. So methane is, [00:12:15] CO2 is a very stable, it, it just like kind of wraps blankets around the planet and there’s a lot of it, but everyone is a single blanket. But we’ve been doing CO2 for so long. They’re all, all of these blankets built up.
[00:12:26] Debbie Gordon: Around the atmosphere. Methane is [00:12:30] almost like an electric blanket. You know, it’s a very, it’s a very hot single blanket, but it’s very hot and it keeps you up too much really quickly. And so if you take it off or you stop leaking it, it’s like. Removing the electric blanket or turning it off. [00:12:45] So you can’t take all the blankets off of you, but you can certainly avoid having this super pollutant, which is, makes it a very fast acting solution to climate change.
[00:12:54] Debbie Gordon: If you don’t leak it, it’s not gonna immediately heat the planet. It only lives in the atmosphere about a decade, but it [00:13:00] does it, it’s very, very warming in that decade when it lives.
[00:13:05] Maryam Pasha: And so if I’m understanding correctly, these pipelines are just, they are leaking this stuff just into the atmosphere with No, not on purpose,
[00:13:14] Debbie Gordon: right?
[00:13:14] Debbie Gordon: Well, [00:13:15] it’s interesting. It’s kind of often not on purpose. Sometimes it’s designed into how a system operates, so these should be closed systems. You know, you take something outta the ground, like the pipes in your house, like you really don’t want your pipes leaking. It should be a closed system, but the reality is that [00:13:30] gas is invisible and coming outta the ground, it’s odorless.
[00:13:33] Debbie Gordon: But here’s the, this is the zinger. It’s under a lot of pressure, so it wants to find cracks and crevices and openings. So that’s the unintentional leakage of this gas It finds, you know, you’re pushing against [00:13:45] it. And then the intentional part is there’s a lot of maintenance where. And like I was loaded down into a compressor for gas to cut carbon on my summer job many moons ago, and they had to open the compressor to let me do that and let the gas come [00:14:00] out.
[00:14:00] Debbie Gordon: Of the compressor. So some maintenance literally opens the system on purpose and isn’t very careful about recovering that gas and putting it back into the system as opposed to just thinking it’s an unwanted byproduct, let’s just like [00:14:15] get rid of it. A lot of this is the artifact of this being an oil and gas industry for the last 100 years where everyone wanted liquids.
[00:14:22] Debbie Gordon: For gasoline and jet fuel and you know, diesel and now it’s becoming a little bit of a gas and oil system. Everyone’s chasing [00:14:30] gas. But for a hundred years, gas was an unwanted byproduct. And this, this gas is not
[00:14:36] Maryam Pasha: the same gas as like we have in our homes.
[00:14:38] Debbie Gordon: Yes, it is. This gas. Is it? Okay? Yes. This gas is not the same gas as gasoline or petrol, which is what [00:14:45] we confuse in the, in America.
[00:14:47] Debbie Gordon: This gas is the gas that heats our furnace. It goes to our furnaces and our stoves. That is the gas that comes from oil called natural gas, which is mostly methane.
[00:14:57] Maryam Pasha: See, I just, I like, I feel like you, you feel like you [00:15:00] know something and then you just like, oh, actually I know nothing. Tell me before we, we jump into, back into the show.
[00:15:06] Solutions to Methane Leakage
[00:15:06] Maryam Pasha: What are some solutions around this that exist in terms. Try to stop some of this methane leakage.
[00:15:12] Debbie Gordon: Yeah, so it, it takes, it’s everywhere. [00:15:15] And we’re talking like oil and gas is in the hundreds of millions of barrels a day. Like the volume, it’s like the hamster wheel that turns so fast. So the solutions have to be many.
[00:15:24] Debbie Gordon: There’s literally no silver bullet. To this, but the very first thing is visualizing it. You need to be able to [00:15:30] see it. It’s invisible and that’s where things like satellites come in, which have been incredibly helpful. We’re working with Carbon Mapper is one of the super emitting satellites. There are several of ’em out there.
[00:15:41] Debbie Gordon: Carbon Mappers, open source. It’s a nonprofit, which is great. Then [00:15:45] once you can see it, you need to quantify it. You need to know where is it the most, where are you, where are your points of like focus. That you’re going to actually mitigate it. And those take things like the tools that RMIS built, the oil climate index plus gas or climate trace.
[00:15:59] Debbie Gordon: [00:16:00] We work with that. Basically do inventories of emissions all over the world. ’cause once you know where your problem is, you have a much better chance of solving it. And then you get into policy. So now you have targets of opportunity, like the European methane standards that are being [00:16:15] worked on right now, um, or the oil and gas decarbonization charter two cops ago, where the national oil companies agreed to limit their gas leakage.
[00:16:25] Debbie Gordon: Like you start to get voluntary and mandatory policy. And then the third thing is markets. [00:16:30] If the, this is a market forward product, it lives and dies on economics and demand. And so you need to build the solutions. Into markets, things like certifying your natural gas, making sure that investors are changing their [00:16:45] decisions, insurers are changing their decisions.
[00:16:48] Debbie Gordon: There’s an insurer, Chubb, that now has set a threshold that if, if an oil and gas asset leaks above that, they won’t insure it. Well, if you can’t get insured, you can’t operate. So the, that’s when you really [00:17:00] get into like those markets. Right. Forward solutions. Right, right.
[00:17:03] Texas and renewable energy
[00:17:03] Maryam Pasha: So I wanna go back to the show because I really wanna talk about the show a little bit more.
[00:17:06] Maryam Pasha: And just to ask you this one last question before I come to you, Lucy, which is about Texas itself. So one of the things that I was surprised to find out when I was looking into this is [00:17:15] that Texas is a renewable energy leader, right? And yet. In the show you have this incredible rant in season, in episode three of season one about wind turbines.
[00:17:27] Maryam Pasha: And I and I, and I wanna just [00:17:30] ask you about it. Like I, you know, I did some digging and people have fact checked what Billy Bomb Thornton’s character says, and all of it is wrong. And I was just curious, like in your experience, what is the kind of attitude towards [00:17:45] renewables in, you know, in that part of the world?
[00:17:48] Debbie Gordon: Yeah, and I wonder if what Billy Bob Thornton says is more shadowing what people think in Texas rather than what the reality is. And remember, the reality is changing. On the ground. It used to [00:18:00] be the oil and gas were the easiest, cheap, easy, easiest, cheapest thing. And now renewables are far cheaper. So we’re in a time of transition and I think that part of what the show can help is make people realize that, like you are saying, Miriam, like, [00:18:15] like, is this even true?
[00:18:16] Debbie Gordon: Like what’s changing on the ground? And the idea here is, and Texas knows it well, they have a huge demand. The biggest. Hungriest state in the US and they also wanna export a lot of [00:18:30] their product and do export. So they have this pull between domestic and international, you know, supply and demand. They get a lot more money for sending it off.
[00:18:38] Debbie Gordon: Sure. And so they’re all in on all energy. They have to be because they need to [00:18:45] both be able to produce something and export it so everyone can make more money and then also serve. The people that live in Texas affordably. Because they’re still demanding energy. So it really is, to my mind what you’re saying, a [00:19:00] look into the future where as we get hungrier and hungrier, and I think we’re gonna get hungrier for energy, not just because of AI and si, you know, and crypto and all of the big data centers, which are talked about all the time.
[00:19:12] Debbie Gordon: But because of climate change. We’re gonna have to pump [00:19:15] more water, we’re gonna have to cool more air, we’re gonna have to rebuild more infrastructure, like we’re starting into this kind of feedback. And that means you cannot afford to say no to wind turbines. You cannot afford to say no to any resource that [00:19:30] you possibly have.
[00:19:30] The push for geothermal energy
[00:19:30] Debbie Gordon: There’s a big push in geothermal. Now the industry is would be great underground. They do everything underground, geothermal’s, underground. It’s all the heat stored up underground. So the idea that you can pick and choose. A single energy source and [00:19:45] make it like, but it’s his job. It’s Billy Bob Thornton’s job to do this.
[00:19:50] Debbie Gordon: So it’s his kind of slice.
[00:19:52] Maryam Pasha: Lucy, let me, thank you Deborah. And also, I just wanna say that I, like, I’m very glad that my summer jobs when I was younger did not involve going underground [00:20:00] ground in our wealth. Um, uh, but very, it’s a very cool story. Um, Lucy, let me ask you like.
[00:20:07] Cultural reflections on climate narratives
[00:20:07] Maryam Pasha: I just flipping to the culture side of this conversation, I watched this show and I, and okay, so now full disclosure, I can say that I think I like this show the least out of everyone, but I watched this and I was like, this is all propaganda.
[00:20:22] Maryam Pasha: Like, I, I found it very annoying and very, but that’s because I, you know, I’m, I’m deeply immersed in climate. When you look at this as someone who’s [00:20:30] looking at climate narratives, how we can use, you know, TV and entertainment in this conversation, how do you watch this? A show like this?
[00:20:40] Lucy Stone: I haven’t spoken to Sheridan Taylor, so I haven’t asked him this myself, but my take [00:20:45] is kind of, as Deborah said, it really reflects the, the kind of myths and assumptions and the narratives that, you know, culturally we’ve all absorbed.
[00:20:54] Lucy Stone: Um, and it is because it’s based on a podcast, right? So it’s based on a podcast, um, based on true [00:21:00] experiences of the Oil Institute. So if that’s your experience. It’s not so much propaganda to say that the oil industry is the most important. That’s your mission, right? That’s your, that’s way of coming, that’s your perspective, if you like.
[00:21:11] Billy Bob Thornton’s controversial role
[00:21:11] Lucy Stone: Um, but I, I think what’s so effective, what’s so interesting about it as a [00:21:15] show is, I mean, it’s Billy Bob and who doesn’t love Billy Bob? He’s great. I have to tell you, I have to tell you. This
[00:21:21] Maryam Pasha: show
[00:21:22] Lucy Stone: is making me not like him. This
[00:21:24] Maryam Pasha: show. I know,
[00:21:25] Lucy Stone: but this is, this is what’s interesting. Lots of people said there’s a, there’s a whole internet chat about this, right?
[00:21:29] Lucy Stone: [00:21:30] Lots of Billy Bob fans kind of really disappointed feeling like, Billy Bob, what are you doing?
[00:21:34] The oil industry’s perspective
[00:21:34] Lucy Stone: I think what’s interesting is the show kind of, you know, as we’ve heard it doesn’t shy away from the dangerous side of the oil industry. And it doesn’t shy away from how dirty and dangerous and kind of cra crazy it is, particularly in the us but it, it is kind of disingenuous in not kind of also, I mean like madly not connecting it to climate.
[00:21:57] Lucy Stone: There’s lots of kind of. Myths and misinformations [00:22:00] in it, but that’s the perspective it’s coming from. So if you are, you know, if you’re a loud man, you work for the oil industry, of course you’re gonna say, you know, renewables are not the future because you, that’s your industry you’re trying to hold onto.
[00:22:10] Lucy Stone: It’s a shame that’s not part of the narrative. That’s the story. The sense that it’s a sunset industry and [00:22:15] that’s part of the desperation. Right. That’s part of why also it’s becoming even more kind of. Chaotic as an industry because as Deborah said, we’re in, we’re in this kind of crazy transition period where everything’s being upended and some of the assumptions are being challenged.
[00:22:29] Lucy Stone: It’s a shame that’s [00:22:30] not reflected in it, but it’s not, that’s not the story’s perspective. It is a very specific perspective, and I think what’s clever about it too is if we think about not just landman. A lot of, particularly the American kind of narratives and myths around the [00:22:45] fossil fuel industry. The kind of through line is often, you know, it’s dirty and it’s dangerous and it’s rugged, and are you hard enough?
[00:22:52] Lucy Stone: But you know, it’s keeping the lights on. It’s the backbone of the economy and we couldn’t do without it. And that might have been partially [00:23:00] true for quite a long time, but it’s definitely not the case anymore. And I think that’s. You know, where maybe there’s a kind of a lag in popular culture kind of catching up with where things are moving, you know, and where the industry is moving and the transition.
[00:23:14] Lucy Stone: But that’s also [00:23:15] the messiness of the period we’re in at the moment. Yeah.
[00:23:18] Maryam Pasha: I
[00:23:18] Lucy Stone: mean,
[00:23:19] The responsibility of storytelling
[00:23:19] Maryam Pasha: do you not, okay, so here’s the question is I watch this show and I thought this is really irresponsible storytelling. That’s where, where I got to where I was like, this may be the reality for people. [00:23:30] That’s, I’m not denying, I mean, as you said, it’s still.
[00:23:32] Maryam Pasha: It accurately depicts the danger, the, the trade offs people have to make. You know, it definitely plays into like the macho culture kind of, I kind of felt uncomfortable by, not [00:23:45] because I’m just uncomfortable by that kinda culture, but also ’cause I was like, I don’t think that everyone out there is like this.
[00:23:51] Maryam Pasha: I guess the thing is, is, is you’ve got this, you know. And I came to, you know, ’cause I kind of heard about the show from you, Lucia early on, and I was like, Nope. Not [00:24:00] watching it, not interested. And then, you know, we, we decided to do this podcast episode and I was like, all I’m gonna watch it. And I, but I started reading about it and googling about it.
[00:24:08] Maryam Pasha: And one of the things that’s kind of online is this two or three minute rant that Billy Bob Thornton does in, in about wind [00:24:15] turbines. And it’s, it’s clipped, it’s on its own. And it goes out there and it’s just, you know, hitting all the check marks of myth and disinformation. Right. And I guess like, is there, there’s something about telling a story of what people [00:24:30] think and what’s real, and then the responsibility of not letting things just hang without, without a counter to them.
[00:24:38] Lucy Stone: Yeah. Well, I def I think there’s, look, there was some, definitely there was some intentional amplification of [00:24:45] that clip out of context and on its known as a piece of. Uh, propaganda. It becomes a piece of propaganda. It’s out of context. You just see the clip and there was still, you could see it on the line.
[00:24:56] Lucy Stone: People have amplified that because it serves the narrative, which [00:25:00] says, oh, this wind stuff is just a woke agenda. You know, it’s, the liberals gone crazy. You know, and that, that was definitely intentional. That is an intentional effort to confuse people who then, and the impact of that is far greater than impact of people who’ve actually watched [00:25:15] the show, because then that’s.
[00:25:16] Lucy Stone: Millions more people who haven’t watched the show, just seen the clip, and there’s a sense of, oh, well, yeah. It just kind of confirms what we thought perhaps was, was true. So yeah, I think there’s, that’s, that’s an interesting question of how these things [00:25:30] percolate into culture without the context, and that’s the shame of the story.
[00:25:33] Lucy Stone: Right. And I think it would’ve made it a more interesting story if you’d have maybe some of the characters, which we know is true if it’s based on truth, right? We know that within the oil industry. [00:25:45] There’s a big difference between an exec of a major oil company who has known for a very long time that their product is causing climate, um, and has done everything they can to kind of hush that and keep selling the product.
[00:25:57] Lucy Stone: There’s a big difference between that and the [00:26:00] person doing the dirty work, lower down the food chain. It’s a job and you are doing the job because it’s the job you’ve got and it’s where you live and that is the job and it’s a dirty, dangerous job and you’re taking the risk of that. There is a big difference and it would’ve [00:26:15] been interesting to explore that.
[00:26:16] Lucy Stone: There’s a show in, um, a Scottish show called The Rig that sort of explores that a bit. So it’s set on an oil rig in Scotland and some of the workers. Working on an orig are saying, you know, is this a sunset [00:26:30] industry? Are we part of the problem? You know, is this scared? Can we exit to renewable industry?
[00:26:34] Lucy Stone: You know, and that would be, that would more accurately represent, you know, where we are in the moment. And I think that’s the pity in it. But um, yeah.
[00:26:43] The role of advertising in media
[00:26:43] Maryam Pasha: So one of the things I found [00:26:45] so interesting when we were looking into researching this is that the American Petroleum Institute paid for advertising right to run alongside season one.
[00:26:55] Maryam Pasha: But the reason they said this in their own words was because they wanted to counteract the [00:27:00] negative description of the oil industry. So I was just like completely thrown by this. ’cause I was like, oh, they’re putting ads there because this is like their show. And then they even feel like it’s not doing a good job.
[00:27:13] Maryam Pasha: And, and does that surprise you? I [00:27:15] mean, what role does that play in think how we should think about something like this?
[00:27:18] Lucy Stone: I mean, the subtlety is its power, right? Because, you know, you could say, alright, okay, it, it’s the reality of how dangerous it is in the industry. But the, the meta narrative, if you like, the kind of key [00:27:30] narrative is, but it’s really important, you know, it’s the key, it’s the backbone.
[00:27:34] Lucy Stone: We need it, you know, it’s like, it’s a shame. It’s so dangerous, but we need it. And. That’s, you know, that’s, that is the helpful narrative for [00:27:45] the, for the fossil fuel industry, isn’t it? E even if the danger of the industry is unhelpful.
[00:27:50] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think probably like you’re both right. This is what is seen as like what people believe right now.
[00:27:56] Maryam Pasha: Right is, is. And I hadn’t thought about it that way. And I think that’s right. ’cause there’s actually [00:28:00] a clip of Taylor Sheridan, who is the co-creator on the Joe Rogan. But there’s a point at which he just, he goes into a rant about wind turbines that is very similar to what Billy Bob Thornton’s rant is.
[00:28:13] Maryam Pasha: And so you’re like, oh, this [00:28:15] is just what he thinks. You know, it is not even more insidious than that. It’s just this is his own
[00:28:21] Debbie Gordon: misunderstanding. I didn’t listen to it, but I would say from my perspective, how the thought process might be going is that it’s, [00:28:30] it’s necessary to build wind turbines and solar arrays, and that’s happening, but there’s a natural resource under the ground, oil and gas.
[00:28:42] Debbie Gordon: And who tells you to [00:28:45] walk away from your resource that you have that you’re endowed with? There’s like an abundance out there right now of everything because renewables have really come in amazingly. But then who’s to tell you? Like tell Saudi Arabia, tell Russia, like, who’s to [00:29:00] tell you, you’re endowed with this, but.
[00:29:02] Debbie Gordon: You can’t use it. You can’t go there, and there’s a little bit of a push and it goes back into the, can we get to the point where it’s a little bit like, let’s consider all energy and the risks and rewards as [00:29:15] opposed to picking off what it is. Just because you’re given something doesn’t mean you have to use it.
[00:29:20] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think that comes back to what you’re both saying is that it, it, it is just an interesting depiction of how people are thinking about [00:29:30] this. And I, and I do actually think that that’s one way to watch this show, um, if like me, you are not into it, is, is like a little anthropological study.
[00:29:41] Maryam Pasha: Of, of what’s
[00:29:41] Debbie Gordon: happening. You are also looking a hundred years ago [00:29:45] because this industry is like the elite 18 hundreds. And so we’re looking at a kind of an artifact here of how something has grown up and then will it change or should it go away? Like, you know, you’re [00:30:00] kind of like, you know, an adult now you’re not.
[00:30:03] Debbie Gordon: Whereas renewables are a little bit like still teenagers. They’re still kind of now taking off. I would say it’s a, and and definitely this, MT. Techs I think is a look at a lot [00:30:15] of things that are, that had set up 50 years ago. They’re not brand new equipment.
[00:30:21] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:22] Lucy Stone: Well, I think it’s, it is interesting to think about the other huge show that Sheridan created Yellowstone, right?
[00:30:28] Lucy Stone: And the, the similarities of [00:30:30] the narratives, right are, you know, this sense that these resources are our resources to extract and do, do what you will will with, and that real kind of settler mentality that this is my resource, I own it, [00:30:45] I’m gonna exploit it to the map. Profit possible and no one’s gonna tell me otherwise.
[00:30:49] Lucy Stone: And that is a very specific worldview, isn’t it? That is, that is just justified. The very extractive, and I don’t just mean extracting of the resources, but extractive of [00:31:00] people and extractive of the ecosystem. It’s our resource. We have a right to exploit It is part of the problematic worldview that is.
[00:31:07] Lucy Stone: Could cause not just the climate crisis that has caused, you know, if you think about just the way in which oil wealth is being [00:31:15] generated particularly, it’s sort of, you really see that in landman, you know, the, the narrative is on, we are taking a risk, and if we get lucky, we’re gonna become really wealthy of the back of that.
[00:31:24] Lucy Stone: Another way of seeing that is it’s a, it’s a. As a natural resource that should be [00:31:30] collective property, should be owned, collective ownership. What would a collective ownership of that look like? And there are really interesting examples of where you’ve had cooperative mining, for example, you’ve had different, which is not so much just about the legal structure and the business [00:31:45] practice, it’s more than mindset, worldview of who, whose resources are they and who should get to exploit them and why, and in what way?
[00:31:53] Lucy Stone: And I think that’s the kind of, that’s the unquestioned kind of. Worldview that sits behind it. Because yes, if that’s your, [00:32:00] if that is your worldview, then you are gonna just exploit it in the way that you seem fit. And it goes back to the point around, um, who’s responsible for the cleanup of that afterwards, you know, normally you are allowed to lease, um, you’ll be given a lease to exploit a [00:32:15] re resource as the, as the terminology goes, and then you should return it to how it was, you know, that is normally the kind of the guidelines of things.
[00:32:22] Lucy Stone: And it’s quite a deliberate strategy for the. Uh, industry to exploit the resource. And then as we’ve heard, leave the cleanup to somebody else. [00:32:30] Often the state, it’s often private individuals, or it’s the state that then has to bear the cost. And really that cost should be born into the cost of benefiting from the extraction, uh, along with the cost of, you know, all the people’s homes and properties are now being.
[00:32:44] Lucy Stone: [00:32:45] Damaged by the climate crisis. So I think, you know, there’s some really interesting, bigger questions about who pays for the impact of all of that exploitation. And
[00:32:54] Debbie Gordon: I think it’s a bit of a, I don’t know. I don’t know if anyone’s really looked at these side by side, but we were saying earlier, Miriam, [00:33:00] like the land man is a really.
[00:33:02] Debbie Gordon: Singular use at how the US does oil and gas. These are private, you know, purchase leased, but from the, you know, federal lands are different, but everything else is kind of private, quasi privatized for [00:33:15] individuals and companies to make money in the US and all of the things Lucy said is correct. With all of those risks and longevity, you know, kind of burdens.
[00:33:25] Global perspectives on oil and gas
[00:33:25] Debbie Gordon: But in countries where the resources are owned by the state. [00:33:30] Which is 80% of the world’s oil and gas is like national nationalized. Um, then it becomes a social rent issue. So then you have the other side of the problem, not always managed very well, but um, [00:33:45] very much collectively, but then the state becomes dependent on those revenues and has a really hard time.
[00:33:54] Debbie Gordon: You know, sovereign wealth funds, like has a, you know, Norway, like they have a really hard time walking away from an [00:34:00] industry that underpins the governance of their country and how it operates besides, you know, royalty and a lot of other things get, you know, with ownership. Within the countries. Um, so it’s, it’s very complicated.
[00:34:13] Debbie Gordon: I, I have a hard time looking around [00:34:15] the world saying this is done exactly how Lucy would ideally want it to be done.
[00:34:20] Recommendations
[00:34:20] Maryam Pasha: Is there something you could be listening to watching reading that is like a good compliment to this?
[00:34:25] Debbie Gordon: The first one that comes to mind, but I wanted to look up the exact title and it’s old, [00:34:30] um, what is it, Daniel Day Lewis.
[00:34:32] Debbie Gordon: There will be Blood. Oh, okay.
[00:34:39] Lucy Stone: Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. I
[00:34:40] Debbie Gordon: was thinking of that. Yeah, I, it kind of gives, again, an kind of an American look, but [00:34:45] at farther in the, in, you know, the past of what this, how this fundamentally shapes up and how it can, and actually what is she’s, what is the line that was just in, in the third episode? Something about between Cammie and [00:35:00] um, Tommy, about this business will kill you.
[00:35:02] Debbie Gordon: You know, it’s like you, this, this business is, it will kill you. It’s all about getting out.
[00:35:06] Maryam Pasha: Yes, yes. I mean there is some real dialogue between the father and son character, which I think are quite interesting in this. And that’s probably what I found the [00:35:15] most, most compelling. If there was something that really did get me, which was this idea that the father’s seen as a failure in the eyes of the sun and yet the sun is trying to do the same thing.
[00:35:23] Maryam Pasha: And, and, and you know, I think that is very interesting ’cause there are legacies like that, that I think exist [00:35:30] in, in. What people are trying to chase that doesn’t exist
[00:35:33] Debbie Gordon: anymore. Maybe for themselves. I was hoping that the, that it would take a turn, but it always depends on how many seasons they wanna get out and how they’re gonna string it along.
[00:35:42] Debbie Gordon: I thought that the difference between the sun [00:35:45] leaving geology studies and being more educated, maybe underground would wanna take the business in a different direction. Use renewables to extract your oil and gas like. Certify it to not leak, do those things and really [00:36:00] kind of divert from his father.
[00:36:01] Debbie Gordon: Like father is like oil gen one and the son is oil and gas Gen two. Like, we’re gonna change this business. I’m gonna be responsible for changing the business. But so far it’s not, this
[00:36:13] Maryam Pasha: is a good recommendation. You know, if Taylor [00:36:15] Sheridan is listening, that is what we, how we think you should take your, your season three.
[00:36:20] Maryam Pasha: How about you, Lucy?
[00:36:22] Lucy Stone: Yeah, I mean, I would say the same. I think we, we really badly need to see those stories of who are the kind of similar, rugged, [00:36:30] brave heroes that are try are building the new economy. You know, they’re building the new infrastructure as we pivot away from fossil fuels and the extractive economy that.
[00:36:39] Lucy Stone: Is already undergoing a transition. So badly need to see that. And it’s not just the kind of the [00:36:45] liberal elite in the west coast. It’s not just the city workers, which is also the truth, right? You know, just outside the oil industry. If you think about regenerative farming and regenerative agriculture, which is having its own whole kind of transition at the moment.
[00:36:58] Lucy Stone: And there are extraordinary [00:37:00] stories of land workers and farmers. With big, bold ambitions and taking on a lot of risk to try and transition and not just reduce their impact, but heal the land. You know, really heal, bring back biodiversity and restore things. The other example [00:37:15] I was thinking of was Leonardo DiCaprio’s film Killers of the Flower Moon.
[00:37:20] Lucy Stone: Then, if you’ve seen that, but that’s a kind of, it’s the origin story really. It’s the kind of. Origin story of the settlers displacing the indigenous people to access [00:37:30] land to exploit it. It’s the kind of origin story of the oil industry in a way. Oh, amazing.
[00:37:35] Maryam Pasha: These are some good recommendations. So, okay, we’ll put those in the chat notes too.
[00:37:39] Closing
[00:37:39] Maryam Pasha: Um, I wanna say a big thank you to both of you for taking this time to chat to us about [00:37:45] laman methane culture and how I should maybe not be so judgmental of the show. Um, and until next time, please say Curious. Thank you for joining us this week. We really hope you’ve [00:38:00] enjoyed this episode.
[00:38:01] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s releases.
[00:38:05] Maryam Pasha: And why not reach out with your very own climate confessions?
[00:38:09] Ben Hurst: While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:38:12] Maryam Pasha: Now, let’s shout out to our fabulous team [00:38:15] behind the pod
[00:38:15] Ben Hurst: executive produced by Josie Colter,
[00:38:18] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshty.
[00:38:19] Ben Hurst: Music, also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:38:21] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Izzy Gladston.
[00:38:24] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:38:26] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:38:28] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha, [00:38:30] and remember, stay curious.
