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When climate criminals are caught –what does justice look like? Criminal psychologist Dr. Julia Shaw joins Climate Curious co-hosts Ben Hurst and Maryam Pasha to explore the psychology of impunity, weigh up punishment versus rehabilitation, and the effectiveness of high penalties.
If you enjoyed this short, listen to episode 1/4 of ‘Climate Curious on Crime: Ep.1 Dieselgate and the psychology of corporate green con men’ now: https://tedxlondon.com/podcasts/climate-curious-on-crime-ep-1-dieselgate-and-the-psychology-of-corporate-green-con-men-with-dr-julia-shaw
Learn more in Julia’s new book, ‘Green Crime’, https://linktr.ee/drjuliashaw
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Introduction to Climate Curious on Crime
00:45 Exploring punishments for environmental crimes
03:38 Volkswagen case study: consequences and penalties
04:45 Effectiveness of high penalties and investigations
06:12 Personal responsibility and proportional fines
07:34 Complexities of imprisonment for environmental crimes
08:09 Conclusion
[00:00:00] Introduction to Climate Curious on Crime
[00:00:00] Ben Hurst: Welcome to Climate Quickies bite-sized nuggets of climate goodness from our TEDxLondon experts in under 10 minutes in this week’s climate, curious, we are asking, once climate criminals are caught, [00:00:15] what do we do with them as part of our new climate? Curious on crime miniseries, we are joined by criminal psychologist Dr.
[00:00:23] Ben Hurst: Julia Shaw to explore the psychology of impunity, weigh up punishments versus rehabilitation. [00:00:30] And assess the effectiveness of high penalties on what justice for environmental crimes might look like. Here’s Julia, myself and my co-host, Maryam Pasha. Stay curious
[00:00:44] Dr. Julia Shaw: and. [00:00:45]
[00:00:45] Exploring punishments for environmental crimes
[00:00:45] Dr. Julia Shaw: It is a question that I have throughout the book is, what do we wanna do with environmental criminals when we catch them?
[00:00:51] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
[00:00:51] Dr. Julia Shaw: What, what would you wanna do? Oh,
[00:00:53] Maryam Pasha: oh, oh, oh. So I personally, okay, this is what I would’ve done. I know I would’ve [00:01:00] nationalized Volkswagen, first of all. Which, which nation? Germany. Okay. I would’ve nationalized it. I would’ve kicked out the entire board. I would’ve made it so that they were not able to sit on another board of a company again.
[00:01:10] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Um, if people were directly new, then they would have [00:01:15] to go to jail for a period of time. In general. Like if they knew like anyone As the engineers? No. Senior. Senior. Okay. The engineers, I think the managers, I wanna talk, we talk about exactly what happened with the engineers. ’cause I do think. There could be more nuance there, but as a company, I think [00:01:30] it should not be able to make profit going forward.
[00:01:32] Maryam Pasha: I think it should have paid everyone back and then it should no longer be able to make profit. It should no longer be able to pay shareholders. I think it, whoa, I think it lied, it cheated. And I do not think we reward capitalism with more capitalism.
[00:01:43] Ben Hurst: What do you think? Not my shares don’t [00:01:45] take my ashes.
[00:01:45] Ben Hurst: Um, no. I, I think. Oh, I dunno, man, it’s difficult because I, I feel like maybe this is where there needs to be some kind of just transition and maybe in my mind, I’m not in two places. One is like punishment, do [00:02:00] harsh things so that people know they can’t get away with it. Like, what? But I don’t actually believe that works.
[00:02:04] Dr. Julia Shaw: What are harsh things?
[00:02:04] Ben Hurst: Like send everyone to prison. Send everyone to jail. But I don’t think that that works. We know that. People that go to jail often re-offend, so the chances are they’re gonna come out and do more worse stuff. [00:02:15] Um, and especially for, although that that
[00:02:16] Dr. Julia Shaw: data’s usually for violent crime.
[00:02:18] Dr. Julia Shaw: Yeah,
[00:02:18] Ben Hurst: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not for white collar crime theft. Yeah. Although I would assume
[00:02:23] Maryam Pasha: yes,
[00:02:23] Ben Hurst: that it’s probably worse for white collar crime. That might, might just be my own bias, but that’s my assumption. We do
[00:02:28] Maryam Pasha: not like what called Kai tell. Yeah. It’s [00:02:30] the worst
[00:02:30] Ben Hurst: type of crime. It’s the worst type of crime.
[00:02:31] Ben Hurst: I
[00:02:31] Maryam Pasha: don’t know that that’s true, but yeah.
[00:02:33] Ben Hurst: Um, so I like the idea of like, oh, you’re not allowed to sit any on, on any boards anymore. Yeah, I think that sounds right. Think that’s a fair consequence. I think that, I don’t know that sending people to prison like you up the being in charge bit, you shouldn’t be in charge.
[00:02:44] Ben Hurst: [00:02:45] Yeah. You’re not allowed to do that anymore. We don’t trust you to do that. Yeah. And I, I think probably. What I imagine happens, I don’t know, you have to correct me if I’m wrong, but what I imagine happens is that people find ways to weasel around and navigate and find [00:03:00] themselves in new positions of power for new companies doing different things that are not linked to what they were doing before.
[00:03:05] Ben Hurst: But I think actually maybe that’s just the end point and it’s like, yeah, you were really successful and you were really good at your job and you did do some bad stuff and now you’re not allowed to do that anymore. And [00:03:15] unfortunately, it means you are. I dunno, like a flaw worker for the rest of, but then I also think that that’s also a, a weird
[00:03:21] Dr. Julia Shaw: mm-hmm.
[00:03:22] Ben Hurst: Mindset, you know, that perpetuates something that’s about value being in the, the work that someone does. And I don’t, I don’t like that. So I feel a bit stuck. [00:03:30] I just know, I just know that I feel that there should be something that, but I can’t answer what the something is. You’d have to gimme a couple of years to figure it out.
[00:03:37] Dr. Julia Shaw: So there’s something I think.
[00:03:38] Volkswagen case study: consequences and penalties
[00:03:38] Dr. Julia Shaw: Uh, correctly applied in this case was that the company Volkswagen both pled guilty to a number of charges. Mm-hmm. Both environmental charges and other ca uh, other charges of fraud, for example. Um, and the advertising campaign, the greenwashing campaign, they also had to pay for that.
[00:03:55] Dr. Julia Shaw: They had to pay back consumers for their cars. They had to upgrade some of the cars. So you can still walk around London and use. See [00:04:00] like the remnants of the diesel, um, centers, I think they’re called diesel centers. And you can sort of see the signs now, just, just now being pulled off where you could go in and they would change.
[00:04:09] Dr. Julia Shaw: Yes, yes. The software of your car. Um, and so they had to offer that to everyone who had a diesel. Um, they probably still [00:04:15] do in some parts of the world. And, um. The, but the main thing is that they had to pay billions in penalties as a company. So if we’re looking at the cost benefit back to that, like they did this because it was cheaper.
[00:04:25] Dr. Julia Shaw: Well, if it’s definitely not cheaper, then you’re less likely to do it. Don’t wanna do, so I think [00:04:30] that is, that is definitely part of the answer is making sure that cost benefit calculation is, is taking, taking into account the costs, not just to the environment, but also to you as a company because of your violations of the environment.
[00:04:41] Dr. Julia Shaw: Mm-hmm. Are, are taken in. Um, more important I think is that we [00:04:45] have.
[00:04:45] Effectiveness of high penalties and investigations
[00:04:45] Dr. Julia Shaw: People who are actually doing these investigations because we know that high consequences are not themselves going to change much. So like we know that in Texas, for example, in the United States, um, I’m Canadian. I always feel like I need to say that.
[00:04:58] Dr. Julia Shaw: Yeah. You’re like, I’m not
[00:04:58] Ben Hurst: from there. Actually [00:05:00] I am,
[00:05:00] Dr. Julia Shaw: I’m Canadian. We don’t have a death penalty. Um, but yeah. But in Texas where they have the death penalty, people still commit murder. Yes. Like they know that there’s the death penalty yet and yet, and
[00:05:09] Dr. Julia Shaw: they’re still there. Yeah.
[00:05:09] Dr. Julia Shaw: And so I feel like that’s, it’s obviously a simplified example, but it’s the same, I think with environmental crimes, is that you could [00:05:15] have the highest possible consequences.
[00:05:16] Dr. Julia Shaw: That’s interesting. But if you think the chances of getting caught. Are incredibly unlikely, yes, you’re still gonna do it. You
[00:05:22] Ben Hurst: still commit the crime. And so
[00:05:23] Dr. Julia Shaw: what matters is how the chance of getting caught more. So you can have a much smaller penalty actually, but as long as it costs more than [00:05:30] what you think you’re going to get from it, it’ll change your your cost benefit decisions.
[00:05:33] Dr. Julia Shaw: And in terms of the, uh, other consequences, individuals did go to prison. So the first whistleblower went to prison. Oh.
[00:05:41] Dr. Julia Shaw: Oh. And he
[00:05:41] Dr. Julia Shaw: had less time in prison in the states Probably because he was working with the [00:05:45] FBI. So he was collaborating.
[00:05:47] Ben Hurst: Oh, but that’s not nice going to prison as a snitch, is it? ’cause you don’t call whistleblowers.
[00:05:50] Ben Hurst: Snitches. I don’t think that we should call whistleblowers snitches, but it is clay. I, some people, some people would be see as snitch in that scenario.
[00:05:58] Dr. Julia Shaw: Maybe. I think I, I don’t know [00:06:00] that a corporate. Snitch whistleblower. We’ll be seen the same in prison as other kinds of s Yeah, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair.
[00:06:05] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:06:05] Dr. Julia Shaw: Uh, but yeah. Um, maybe
[00:06:07] Ben Hurst: the white collar prison
[00:06:08] Dr. Julia Shaw: maybe. Yeah. Um, which is probably gonna be a low security prison. Yeah.
[00:06:12] Personal responsibility and proportional fines
[00:06:12] Dr. Julia Shaw: One of the lawyers, environmental lawyers I spoke to for this book, she is, was, was working in the US and she said that we need to put some of these people in prison because they don’t think, they don’t take that into account right now.
[00:06:24] Dr. Julia Shaw: That there’s going to be personal responsibility in that way. Mm. Um, so quite a lot, quite often they will also have. Charge, like fines that they have [00:06:30] to pay, which also happened in the Volkswagen cases. Like quite a lot of people had to pay fines themselves. Themselves. Well, yeah. Like penalties. But they like, I
[00:06:36] Ben Hurst: can pay a fine, it’s fine.
[00:06:37] Ben Hurst: That’s why people park on yellow lines. Right? ’cause they’re like,
[00:06:40] Dr. Julia Shaw: but these are high convenience. Yeah, these are really high. And they were specific make a lot money. No, yeah. But they were adjusted to their earnings, obviously. [00:06:45] Right. ’cause otherwise it doesn’t make any sense.
[00:06:46] Ben Hurst: Other, whereas there’s no point.
[00:06:47] Ben Hurst: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.
[00:06:48] Dr. Julia Shaw: So yeah, they were, they were specifically, you know,
[00:06:51] Maryam Pasha: targeted. Yeah. Like imagine if you, and you parked on the other line. They looked at you and they said, Ben, you make this much, this is your fine. But yeah,
[00:06:57] Ben Hurst: 40% of your million. But this is so, so this, that,
[00:06:59] Dr. Julia Shaw: that’s the [00:07:00] thing with some countries have that for speeding tickets, is that it is proportionate to your earnings.
[00:07:03] Dr. Julia Shaw: Ooh. Which makes sense. Yes. Makes sense. Hasn’t hurt the same as the idea, because otherwise it’s just, you’re like, I’ll just pay that. Yeah, no,
[00:07:09] Ben Hurst: it works. ’cause in my brain I was like, which countries? I won’t speed there. It’s making how much money you’re making. Yeah. Maybe you’ll, [00:07:15] yeah, exactly. Maybe it’s worth,
[00:07:16] Dr. Julia Shaw: I, I got a five, uh, not to make any assumption.
[00:07:22] Dr. Julia Shaw: But maybe for me at least, some countries might be like,
[00:07:24] Dr. Julia Shaw: I can still afford that even if I don’t make much money. Um, but anyway, um, so yeah, but they put people in [00:07:30] prison and they, she was saying that we need prisons and I like the symbolism.
[00:07:34] Complexities of imprisonment for environmental crimes
[00:07:34] Dr. Julia Shaw: So I don’t think prisons are a good answer in general, but they are.
[00:07:37] Dr. Julia Shaw: Yeah. I feel very, I feel
[00:07:38] Maryam Pasha: very complex about prisons. I don’t feel like I know enough or understand enough to just say, lock ’em up. I think it’s a [00:07:45] bad idea. Yeah, definitely
[00:07:45] Dr. Julia Shaw: don’t do that. Um, but it does, and I think this is the most important thing and what I’m trying to do with my book as well as a criminal psychologist Yeah.
[00:07:51] Dr. Julia Shaw: Is it places environmental crimes. In the same category as other crimes Yeah. And other crimes that we really care [00:08:00] about societally. Yeah. And so that I think is good. So if we’re, if, if we’re doing the thing of putting people in prisons, I think we should definitely be putting environmental criminal services.
[00:08:07] Dr. Julia Shaw: Yeah,
[00:08:07] Maryam Pasha: that’s an interesting way to think about it.
[00:08:09] Conclusion
[00:08:09] Ben Hurst: Thanks for listening. If the idea of green crime has caught your attention, [00:08:15] join us every Monday this October for a brand new mini series climate. Curious On Crime. With Dr. Julia Shaw. It’s where true crime meets climate meets psychology. Together we’ll share the stories of the psychology [00:08:30] behind three famous climate crimes, unpacking them alongside Julia’s six pillars of green crime framework.
[00:08:36] Ben Hurst: Whilst asking the question, what role does psychology play in the fight against climate crime? And in true [00:08:45] climate curious style, we are looking at these crimes from the viewpoint of positivity and progress through the eyes of a capable guardian, the people who catch the common men murderers and traffickers of climate crimes.
[00:08:59] Ben Hurst: See you [00:09:00] next week for episode two, the Murders of Maria and Ze Claudio and the psychology of eco hitman. Just follow climate curious wherever you get your podcasts. Stay [00:09:15] curious.
