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“I feel upbeat about what’s possible,” says Tessa Khan, environmental lawyer, campaigner, and founder of Uplift. In this live episode, Tessa joins co-hosts Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst for a stocktake of the UK’s most epic climate victories: ending new oil and gas exploration, shutting down the last coal-fired power plant, and becoming the only major economy to cut greenhouse gas emissions by roughly 50% in 30 years. There’s a lot to celebrate – and a lot still to fight for! Plus: how climate messaging can appeal to the populist right. Recorded live at Climate Curious Live in London.
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Introduction
01:06 Finding Jjy in climate justice
03:17 Campaigning targets and tactics
04:55 Taking Big Oil to court
05:45 How climate cases are built
08:34 Rosebank win and what next
09:42 Fossil fuel playbook exposed
13:03 UK climate leadership role
16:53 Populist Right and climate risk
19:32 A hopeful UK path forward
21:30 Climate impacts at home
24:21 Making solutions feel tangible
26:48 Favorite climate success story
28:27 Wrap up and credits
Introduction
[00:00:00] Tessa Khan: I say this is a lawyer litigation. Nobody enjoys. It gets expensive. It takes loads of time. It’s a super uncertain outcome. Often it’s a binary outcome, which is win or lose, you know,
[00:00:13] Ben Hurst: which, as I was gonna say, they make it look good [00:00:15] on tv.
[00:00:16] Ben Hurst: This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate change.
[00:00:23] Maryam Pasha: I’m Marion Pasha, the director and curator at Telex London, and the co-host of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:29] Ben Hurst: Hi. [00:00:30] I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like and self-confessed climate normie.
[00:00:41] Maryam Pasha: You have been one of the lawyers at the forefront of landmark legal cases against [00:00:45] big oils such as stopping projects in the North Sea, like Rosebank and campaigning in support of cases seeking international justice for deadly typhoons, such as Odette in Thailand. Okay, so with that perspective of having, I guess, worked in all of [00:01:00] these different ways all around the world, talk about this moment for you.
Finding Joy in Climate Justice
[00:01:06] Tessa Khan: Um, well, I am still having quite a lot of fun, so I think that’s probably the most important thing to say at the outset. You know, being [00:01:15] part of the climate movement and movements internationally for justice is just unbelievably rewarding. Um, and it’s yeah, kind of exhilarating to be doing work that is.[00:01:30]
[00:01:30] Tessa Khan: Deeply political. You know, it’s subject to the big political forces of the day, but it’s ultimately about making people’s lives better. Um, and I have a real sense that the work that you know, [00:01:45] I’m involved in doing is. Ultimately for the greater good. And we feel that when we talk to, you know, ordinary people who aren’t the kind of people who would come to the conduit on a Wednesday night.
[00:01:56] Tessa Khan: Not, not to any, you weird, you weirdo, boy you’re here, the people who are here. [00:02:00] But, um, you know, the thing is that despite what you might hear in the uk, um, the level of public support for action on climate change and more ambition on climate change over the years has. Remained pretty steady. And it is [00:02:15] the majority, it’s more than the majority of people.
[00:02:18] Tessa Khan: And that support has remained steady, you know, despite increasingly hostile public discourse, despite the power of the fossil fuel industry, despite, you know, various [00:02:30] powerful governments around the world, um, deciding to make this an agenda that they go after. So, you know, that I think is just hugely affirming for the work that we’re doing.
[00:02:40] Ben Hurst: So what does, what does change look like [00:02:45] in the context of, of your work? Because it, the, the word campaigning is used and when I hear the word campaigning, I think of like. Posters and adverts, you know what I mean? I don’t know if maybe that is what it is, but what does that look like in terms of, you’ve been doing this for a good amount of [00:03:00] time.
[00:03:00] Ben Hurst: Right? And so I imagine that things work in, in a flux kind of state, right? Where it’s like high moments and low moments and things change over the years. What does that look like in terms of the work that you’ve been doing?
[00:03:12] Tessa Khan: Yeah, so it definitely is like campaigns and adverts. [00:03:15] That’s okay.
[00:03:15] Ben Hurst: Yeah, yeah,
[00:03:15] Tessa Khan: yeah.
[00:03:15] Tessa Khan: Good, good. That’s right about, that’s.
Campaigning Targets and Tactics
[00:03:17] Tessa Khan: Campaigning involves a whole range of different tactics. And you know what I would say about the climate crisis is that hopefully, um, if you are working to address it, there are two classes of actors that are responsible for it overwhelmingly. And so the targets in terms of who you’re trying to persuade to change are quite obvious.
[00:03:41] Tessa Khan: And in my view, um, that’s national governments who [00:03:45] have committed, you know, under. The Paris Agreement. National governments have for decades been committing to take the climate crisis seriously and to do more to address it. Obviously, they have the power, the legal and the regulatory power to encourage the massive [00:04:00] shifts socially and economically that we need to see.
[00:04:02] Tessa Khan: So. A, that’s who you’ve got to go after. And B uh, the fossil fuel industry, um, which has continued to profit from selling a product that they know is driving the climate crisis for [00:04:15] decades as well, and has done like a ton to actively undermine progress on this agenda. And who also, if you look at the empirical evidence, uh, overwhelming risk.
[00:04:26] Tessa Khan: Overwhelmingly responsible for the, um, volume of greenhouse [00:04:30] gases that are in the atmosphere. Like that just wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for, um, the burning of fossil fuels. So we’ve got clear targets, and then the question as a campaigner is, you know, how do you basically persuade those organizations or those [00:04:45] actors to, to move?
[00:04:46] Tessa Khan: And so with, you know, with governments, that involves demonstrating that there’s a public appetite, real public support, as, as one example of, of how to do that.
Taking Big Oil to Court
[00:04:55] Ben Hurst: And with big oil, you take them to court. Court,
[00:04:57] Tessa Khan: yeah. Generally,
[00:04:58] Ben Hurst: yeah, to court. That is
[00:04:59] Tessa Khan: my preferred [00:05:00] approach. Yeah.
[00:05:01] Ben Hurst: Get ‘
[00:05:02] Tessa Khan: em, get ’em. I like, no, I mean that’s, that’s one way of doing it.
[00:05:05] Tessa Khan: If you can’t, you know, I will say, and I say this is a lawyer, like litigation is. Nobody, nobody enjoys it. You know, like it’s [00:05:15] expensive. It takes loads of time. It’s a super uncertain outcome. Often it’s a binary outcome, which is, it’s like win or lose, you know? Which, because
[00:05:23] I
[00:05:23] Ben Hurst: was gonna say, they make it look good on tv.
[00:05:24] Ben Hurst: Like,
[00:05:25] Tessa Khan: yeah, they, it looks like
[00:05:26] a
[00:05:26] Ben Hurst: party. Like everybody’s having a good time. I don’t know.
[00:05:29] Tessa Khan: Yeah. Which you [00:05:30] believe that’s not hugely representative of the normal experience, including, I would just say the caliber of people’s outfits and the number of blow dry that people seem to have. You’ll be disappointed.
[00:05:39] Tessa Khan: Um.
[00:05:40] Maryam Pasha: So I know that now, like when your work with up uplift, use lots of different [00:05:45] tools.
How Climate Cases Are Built
[00:05:45] Maryam Pasha: But can we talk about law for a moment? You know, you’ve worked on all these different cases. What is that? What is that process from? From how do you find a case that you think this is something that can not just win, but set that precedent and taking it through And just talk us through that a little bit, that role of the law.
[00:06:03] Tessa Khan: Yeah, so really as I said, you know, you have to start by figuring out who it is that is responsible for the thing that you are trying to prevent usually, or you know, that you’re trying to [00:06:15] encourage. Um, and so most recently my organization uplift, um, took the UK government to court, um, in addition to Greenpeace.
[00:06:24] Tessa Khan: This was the previous government, I should say, not this government. Um, and that was. [00:06:30] Um, in relation to a decision that the last government made to approve the Rosebank oil field, right, which is the largest undeveloped oil field in the uk. It, you know, developing it would involve extracting in the order of 500 million barrels of [00:06:45] oil at a point when the science is really clear that we just can’t afford to.
[00:06:49] Tessa Khan: Additional fossil fuel supply added to existing supply if we’re gonna stay within safe climate limits. So anyway, so we were not happy about that. Um, and
[00:06:58] Ben Hurst: understandably.
[00:06:59] Tessa Khan: Yeah.
[00:06:59] Ben Hurst: Yeah,
[00:06:59] Tessa Khan: yeah. [00:07:00] And, and what is clear is, and what you look at in these cases is like, you know, what are the duties that governments have to actually do the right thing?
[00:07:08] Tessa Khan: So, you know, do they have duties to protect people? Do they have duties to protect the environment? It turns out they [00:07:15] do. You know, in a country like the UK. Um, there’s a whole range of those responsibilities, whether they’re rooted in, in domestic law or in international law. And so in that particular case, um, one of the things that was very clear is that the, [00:07:30] the government is actually supposed to do an environmental impact assessment before it approves major new oil and gas projects.
[00:07:39] Tessa Khan: Um, and conveniently at the time when it made those assessments, it [00:07:45] excluded the single largest. Environmental impact of opening up a new oil and gas field, which is, uh, the climate impact of burning the oil and gas. So that sort of sounds like totally preposterous [00:08:00] now, but it’s how the law had developed up until that point.
[00:08:03] Tessa Khan: So. Uplift made the argument, Greenpeace made the argument, and it was on the back of a very important legal victory by another climate campaign of Sarah Finch the previous year in the Supreme Court, where the Supreme Court was like, yeah, you know [00:08:15] what? That’s kind of crazy that the government’s doing environmental wow impact assessments of fossil fuel projects without considering the implications of burning those fossil fuels.
[00:08:23] Tessa Khan: Right? And so, um, so, so we won. And, but you know, that was really [00:08:30] rooted, as I said, in the fact that the government does have a responsibility to protect the environment.
Rosebank Win and What Next
[00:08:34] Maryam Pasha: What happens after a win like that? Because, you know, I feel like that’s not the end of the story. It’s, yeah. What happens now?
[00:08:41] Tessa Khan: Yeah, definitely isn’t the end of the story, especially in the [00:08:45] uk, if what you’re doing is challenging, um, a government decision, usually the result is that the decision is basically nullified.
[00:08:54] Tessa Khan: Like it’s as though the decision was never taken, and then the government’s ask to make the decision again. But [00:09:00] this time in a way that’s consistent with the law. So we are now in a position where the UK government is. Once again, considering the application by the oil and gas companies in question, um, to who want to develop the [00:09:15] field.
[00:09:15] Tessa Khan: So, uh, it’s really basically our job right now as the government’s considering it to make every possible argument. And there are loads of them, and I would love to run through them with you all, um, loads of reasons, not just on environmental grounds, why developing [00:09:30] rosebank would be a, a disastrous idea for the British public.
[00:09:33] Tessa Khan: Um, but so it’s our job to. Kind of constantly make those arguments heard so that the government is aware of them while they’re now reconsidering that decision.
Fossil Fuel Playbook Exposed
[00:09:42] Maryam Pasha: How have the [00:09:45] tactics of, I guess I’m gonna call ’em, the opposition, changed over time?
[00:09:50] Ben Hurst: The opposition. That’s spooky, isn’t it? Yeah, they might be in the room.
[00:09:56] Tessa Khan: It might be, um, well, I mean, this is all [00:10:00] public knowledge, so I’ve got nothing, nothing secret to tell you or to disclose here. Um, so if we’re talking about the fossil fuel industry, I mean, their tactics have been. Pretty consistent, I would say, [00:10:15] um, over decades. It, you know, of course depends on which part of the world you’re living in, that in some countries the fossil fuel industry feels much more emboldened to, you know, assassinate, environmental activists.
[00:10:28] Tessa Khan: And, you know, in countries like the Philippines [00:10:30] and Brazil, that’s, that happens, you know, those countries have huge rates of environmental defenders being murdered for the work that they do to, um, protect the environment. But, you know, more generally speaking, so. Oil and gas companies, and again, this is a matter of public [00:10:45] record now, but they have for decades.
[00:10:47] Tessa Khan: Despite knowing, you know, internally commissioning science and reports like Shell was doing in the early 1980s, that show that burning fossil fuels leads to the generation of greenhouse gases, which leads to climate change, [00:11:00] which will have, you know, a whole set of inevitable devastating consequences on, on people.
[00:11:05] Tessa Khan: You know, they have chosen to set up think tanks, fund, think tanks that. Create alternative versions of the science, or you know, they [00:11:15] pay lobbyists literally billions of pounds to meet with politicians and to, and to meet with journalists and to influence the public debate. So that what is a very clear scientific consensus around the role that fossil fuels play in the climate crisis [00:11:30] becomes much murkier.
[00:11:31] Tessa Khan: Um, you know, and in addition to that, they have. Cultural power as well, you know, and I know you know lots about that, Merriam, so I defer to you, but you know, the fossil fuel industry. Pays for [00:11:45] influencers on social media to talk about why it’s impossible to cook a, a, a steak without using gas. You know, it’s like, it’s, it’s such a huge suite of tactics and that’s why I think it’s also so important for all of us.
[00:11:59] Tessa Khan: To [00:12:00] use all of the different kinds of power that we have to challenge those narratives and to challenge that power.
[00:12:05] Ben Hurst: Is that not, is it, is that crazy? That’s crazy, right? Like that they do that. That is crazy. ’cause I feel, I feel like there’s no reaction to these things. And sometimes when we have these conversations, [00:12:15] this is a very strange, a surreal experience for me.
[00:12:17] Ben Hurst: ’cause you guys can see my face while people are talking, but like, I’m like. Are the, are they psychopaths? Like what’s, is this, is it fair? Is that a fair assessment? You can’t speak on that. You’re a lawyer. Okay. I No problem. No [00:12:30] problem.
[00:12:30] Tessa Khan: I mean, what, you know what I’ll say Yes I can, and maybe slightly more diplomatic terms is that, you know, it’s an industry on the whole that has uniformly put its profit ahead of every other public interest.
[00:12:44] Tessa Khan: Right. And [00:12:45] imperative. And that is, in my view, morally indefensible. Um, it might make you rich in the short term. Mm-hmm. But, you know, have you got kids or grandkids, like it’s in your interest that there’s a livable planet for them to enjoy. Yeah. They’re
[00:12:57] Ben Hurst: probably not gonna be rich.
[00:12:59] Tessa Khan: Yes,
[00:12:59] Ben Hurst: [00:13:00] exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:00] Ben Hurst: Okay. I get it. I get it. I get
[00:13:01] Tessa Khan: it. That’s one way of putting it. Yeah.
[00:13:02] Maryam Pasha: Let’s.
UK Climate Leadership Role
[00:13:03] Maryam Pasha: Let’s move, well not move, but we talked a bit about the UK and I wanna focus on the uk. What do you, I guess I’m just thinking like what do you see the role of the UK being at this moment? Mm. Um, as things feel, I think depending on who you ask, like we interviewed Angus Harvey the other week, you know, from Fix the News, and he was talking about how if you look at it.
[00:13:24] Maryam Pasha: From a perspective of China, it feels very optimistic actually with what’s happening. But if, but it [00:13:30] with other colleagues, when you’re focused it from a US lens, it does not feel that way. And so I’m just curious, you know, you’ve got this focus from the US outwards. What, what, what is your perspective at this moment?
[00:13:41] Tessa Khan: So I actually think that the uk, um, has [00:13:45] played an incredibly important role globally in creating momentum for action on climate change. And I know that it’s, it’s, it’s easy and it’s also right to focus on all of the things that we could be doing better. But the [00:14:00] UK is. The only major economy in the world that has reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by about 50% in the last 30 years.
[00:14:10] Tessa Khan: If you include that’s, that’s in terms of, you know, what we produce. [00:14:15] In the territory of the uk, if you include also all of the products that we consume and the greenhouse gases associated with that. Even then in the last decade, uh, emissions have been dropping. Like it is remarkable actually that we, for [00:14:30] example, in the UK shut down the last coal fired power plant, you know, in the, in the country where the industrial revolutions.
[00:14:35] Tessa Khan: Started the last coal fired power plant closed, um, in the last year. And that’s
[00:14:42] Ben Hurst: Don’t cheer for the uk. No, I’m joking. Yeah. [00:14:45] Yeah. It’s a woo
[00:14:45] Tessa Khan: moment. I that it’s a crowd that’s not gonna cheer for the uk. I’m feeling isolated.
[00:14:48] Ben Hurst: It’s a woo. I feel like that’s a woo.
[00:14:50] Tessa Khan: Yeah. But yeah.
[00:14:50] Ben Hurst: But you
[00:14:50] Tessa Khan: know, I say all of that.
[00:14:52] Tessa Khan: As though it’s a, yeah. Something to celebrate. But I think the very important context is that it is absolutely the UK’s responsibility to [00:15:00] show that kind of leadership. And that’s because the uk, despite, you know, only having 60 million odd people, um, is in the, I don’t, I don’t mean they’re all odd. I meant that was
[00:15:11] Ben Hurst: rude.
[00:15:12] Ben Hurst: Okay. Alright.
[00:15:13] Maryam Pasha: Take an old turn.
[00:15:14] Tessa Khan: I [00:15:15] mean, roughly 60 million people. Um. It’s a country that is still in the top 10 countries if, if for historical emissions. Mm-hmm. Like if you look at all of the greenhouse gases that have been emitted since the start of the industrial revolution, the UK is in the top [00:15:30] 10, which is insane because other countries like China and India have a billion people.
[00:15:35] Tessa Khan: Um, and that’s because, as I said, we’ve been dependent for so long on burning coal and that’s how we ran our industries and, and everything else. Also, it’s [00:15:45] rich. You know, it’s one of the major economies. It’s the one of the top seven economies in the world. Um, and also I would say, you know, it’s also one of the countries that’s blessed with the alternative energy resources that are needed to shift away [00:16:00] from fossil fuels.
[00:16:00] Tessa Khan: Like the UK has the fifth largest offshore wind market in the world. The North Sea is a dream for developing wind power. And so there’s every reason, both moral and practical and economic for the UK to be. [00:16:15] Showing that sort of leadership. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:16:17] Ben Hurst: This is, this is something that I think of, uh, I think about often, well, what constitutes as often in my world is like.
[00:16:25] Ben Hurst: Why do people care about the UK and Europe so much? Like, I, I [00:16:30] think, is it, the statistic is like 8%, is that right? It’s, we, it’s 8% of global emissions come from Europe. Is that true? Am I making that up?
[00:16:38] Tessa Khan: That sounds about right. Yeah.
[00:16:39] Ben Hurst: So why, why do we make such a big deal out of Europe? Is it the same reason that you’ve, [00:16:45] you’ve given because we are.
[00:16:46] Tessa Khan: Historically responsible.
[00:16:48] Ben Hurst: The culprits. Yeah.
[00:16:48] Tessa Khan: Okay. Right, right. And also have the resources to make that transition happen.
Populist Right and Climate Risk
[00:16:53] Maryam Pasha: So let’s imagine the two versions of 10 years from now. Um,
[00:16:59] Ben Hurst: oh, [00:17:00] are you sure? Are you sure?
[00:17:02] Maryam Pasha: I want us to not focus on the negative one for long. Okay, cool. Or for long. Cool, cool. But I do think it’s important to just say, what do you imagine the worst case scenario be?
[00:17:11] Maryam Pasha: Not the worst case scenario. How do I, because Tessa, you and I have talked a lot about the [00:17:15] idea of. What happens if we have a reformed government? And for me, that’s the worst case scenario. It may not be for everyone. And that is okay. Um, no, it’s not. That is terrible. It’s not okay. But it, but that’s what I’ll say.
[00:17:25] Maryam Pasha: Um, but what I mean is that’s not my, my opinion. I’m gonna force on other people. I’ve learned my [00:17:30] lesson, not my lesson. Are you
[00:17:30] Ben Hurst: Pause?
[00:17:31] Maryam Pasha: No, we are nonpartisan. But what I mean is that, that when I look at climate action, that’s the worst case scenario, let alone all the other things I might care about. Yeah.
[00:17:39] Maryam Pasha: What does the, why should we be concerned about that? Like there’s definitely, I [00:17:45] think, a part of the climate movement who thinks we can just work with anyone and is that true? And
[00:17:49] Tessa Khan: no, it is not true. Uh, no. I mean, I would say that, you know, a party like reform, you know, the sort of populist right in the uk, whatever is absolutely.[00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Tessa Khan: Not a friend of climate action. They are actively hostile towards renewable energy, towards taking any of the measures that are needed to address climate change. And they’ve made that explicit, like that’s not just me hypothesizing, it’s, it’s [00:18:15] in black and white. It’s part of what they are threatening to do if they’re in government and kind of counterparts in the us you know, which is the kind of MAGA republican movement that’s currently in power have shown I think the extent to which.
[00:18:29] Tessa Khan: The [00:18:30] populist right can not only go about unwinding progress, but to, to destroy it in a way that is nihilistic in intent. You know, like literally ripping up charging infrastructure for EVs [00:18:45] just in a way that doesn’t make any economic sense. There are no upsides to doing that, but it’s because it’s an ideological.
[00:18:51] Tessa Khan: Yeah. Hostility towards action on climate change because for some reason, you know, having a livable planet is considered woke, I guess. Um, [00:19:00] so
[00:19:00] Ben Hurst: snowflake shit, that is,
[00:19:01] Tessa Khan: yeah. Yeah.
[00:19:02] Ben Hurst: Grow up,
[00:19:03] Tessa Khan: get over
[00:19:04] Ben Hurst: it. So
[00:19:04] Tessa Khan: that, you know, I think that’s, that’s the, that’s the risk. Um, yeah, it’s bad.
[00:19:09] Maryam Pasha: I’m only laughing because I saw John Stewart today, uh, on a clip saying, when did the, when [00:19:15] did the write become snowflakes?
[00:19:17] Maryam Pasha: That’s why I’m laughing. I can tell. Joking unrelated. Um. But okay. So we know that that is, I think we’ve, we all spend maybe a little bit too much time in that version of the future, although we need to know what’s coming, what is it, what It’s
[00:19:28] Tessa Khan: not necessarily [00:19:30] coming.
[00:19:30] Maryam Pasha: Well, yeah. It’s not power to change that background.
[00:19:32] Maryam Pasha: Exactly.
A Hopeful UK Path Forward
[00:19:32] Maryam Pasha: So if we were able to change it, if we are doing what you think is possible, what does the path forward look like for the uk?
[00:19:39] Tessa Khan: For the good outcome you mean? Yes,
[00:19:41] Maryam Pasha: for the
[00:19:41] Tessa Khan: good outcome. Yeah. So this is why I guess, like, I [00:19:45] appreciate, I might be in a minority, but I, I feel kind of upbeat about
[00:19:50] Maryam Pasha: we’re here for
[00:19:50] Tessa Khan: it, what’s possible.
[00:19:52] Tessa Khan: And that’s because, you know, I think that the story that the. Populist Right. Is trying to tell it’s, [00:20:00] it’s true in its kind of analysis of how people are feeling. Like, I think it’s true that there are large parts of the country, given industrial decline, visible inequality, stagnating wages, like all of the ways in which people feel like government [00:20:15] doesn’t work for them, that they don’t have agency over their own lives, you know that they’re being left behind, that they’re only part that London’s the only part of the country where anything goes.
[00:20:23] Tessa Khan: Right. You know, all of that is. Reasonable given the facts. Um, and what the right is saying is [00:20:30] that, you know, you are feeling resentful and we can tell you who to blame and the people to blame are mostly immigrants, but also, you know, out of touch woke climate ad advocates and, you know, other kind of international and, and national elite.
[00:20:43] Tessa Khan: And what I would [00:20:45] say is. And what I think we should be saying is you’re, you are absolutely right to be feeling the way that you’re feeling. Like all of that is true. But the thing is, if we really embrace action on climate change like that isn’t, that [00:21:00] is a pathway to. Good jobs to wealth in your communities, to cleaner air, to greener neighborhoods, to a future for your kids that’s secure.
[00:21:10] Tessa Khan: Like it is the answer to all of the things that you are looking for. And I genuinely think we [00:21:15] can, we can deliver that. You know, it’s not just a story that we’d be telling. And so that’s why I think that we’ve actually, we can meet people where they are, but also offer them something that’s genuinely hopeful.
[00:21:28] Maryam Pasha: I mean, so, so, no, you [00:21:30] go.
Climate Impacts at Home
[00:21:30] Ben Hurst: No, I, I was, I was moving somewhere else in my head, which was about the impacts of climate change in the uk ’cause I find it hard to place that, but I know if that’s the right place to go to. Yeah. I love, okay, we’re going there. So I’m, I’m interested [00:21:45] in what, like, I sometimes feel like I’m.
[00:21:49] Ben Hurst: Maybe living in a bit of a bubble or like, I’m not seeing the reality of what is happening. And like the analysis that you just gave, um, where one of the points is like, ev the only place things work is [00:22:00] in London, for example, I live in London. I was born in London. And so in my mind I’m like, how is the climate changing?
[00:22:08] Ben Hurst: Like I can see, I can see it changing in other places. I can see like fires in other places. I can see floods in other places, but here [00:22:15] it feels like. Nothing’s really happening. Like there’s maybe more, oh, it was warm this winter. That was, that was weird. That was weird. It was like 10 degrees until like December.
[00:22:25] Ben Hurst: But apart from that, I can’t really place the impact. I feel like I’m a, I’m, I [00:22:30] like some kind of conspiracist now, but I’d, I’d love for you to maybe point me in the right direction of where we are seeing some of those impacts in our context.
[00:22:37] Tessa Khan: Yeah, sure. Yeah, so there are. All sorts of impacts happening across the uk.
[00:22:42] Tessa Khan: Um, primarily [00:22:45] there has been quite a lot of flooding recently, um, to the point that actually for the first time ever, there are parts of the UK towns that are now becoming uninsurable because of flood risk. So that’s a pretty serious [00:23:00] problem. And there was a council in Wales just in the last week that decided to just buy out.
[00:23:06] Tessa Khan: Dozens of properties within a town because there’s just no point in pressing ahead. You know, when you know that parts of your [00:23:15] town are gonna become unlivable. And I know that there are folks, I know people who have properties in places like Suffolk, who, because of coastal erosion, like their houses are just falling into the sea.
[00:23:24] Tessa Khan: You know? And that’s, that’s just how ordinary people are experiencing it. If you rely on the land for your [00:23:30] livelihood, like farmers do, they have had some of the worst harvest. On record because of a combination of both flood and drought like we’ve had that we had some of the driest seasons. On record in the last year, like [00:23:45] water reservoirs at record lows.
[00:23:47] Tessa Khan: You know, Scotland had its worst ever fire season. It like wildfires in Scotland, you know, in Scotland. Like, this is, this stuff isn’t normal.
[00:23:56] Ben Hurst: How crazy. I’m like, there’s no fires all flooding here. And you’re like, no, they’re. [00:24:00] There is, there
[00:24:00] Tessa Khan: is.
[00:24:00] Ben Hurst: You’re literally just not paying attention. Okay. Noted.
[00:24:03] Tessa Khan: I didn’t wanna say that.
[00:24:04] Tessa Khan: Noted.
[00:24:04] Ben Hurst: Noted.
[00:24:05] Tessa Khan: It has also rained every day in England since the start of the year. And tell me, I know that people talk about like this place being rainy, but that [00:24:15] is not normal. It’s
[00:24:15] Ben Hurst: so trash here, man. So bad.
[00:24:18] Tessa Khan: Yeah, it’s bad.
[00:24:19] Maryam Pasha: I’m a bit sad. Um.
Making Solutions Feel Tangible
[00:24:21] Maryam Pasha: I wanna, I actually wanna take us in a different direction because I wanna ask about, I wanna pick up on one thread and then we’re gonna end, which is, so we wanna, um, paint this alternative version like as you said, take starting where people are and taking them to what, what could be the solution for lots of things they care about in their lives.
[00:24:37] Maryam Pasha: And I think one of the things that always. I get to, it’s like how, and you alluded to one of it is that we have loads of great [00:24:45] renewable resources, like offshore wind, onshore wind, all of that. I guess when you think about those conversations, how do you get people to see how tangible it is?
[00:24:54] Tessa Khan: Yeah. Well, I mean, the reality is that those jobs in renewable energy, for example, like they [00:25:00] exist now, you know, the, the UK is creating tens of thousands of jobs in renewable energy every year at the moment.
[00:25:09] Tessa Khan: Um, and so they’re not necessarily in London, they’re in the parts of the country that are closer to that infrastructure. [00:25:15] Um, there’s a lot more to be done to ensure that those jobs stay here, that they’re for the long term, that they offer the kinds of conditions that people want, but, you know, people are already benefiting from that.
[00:25:26] Tessa Khan: The, you know, the other thing that, um, I think is [00:25:30] really critical for people’s everyday experience of, um, why this transition is important is energy affordability. Um, like your bills and the cost of living, which again, is Yeah.
[00:25:41] Ben Hurst: Shout out to percent energy. Yeah.
[00:25:42] Tessa Khan: Right.
[00:25:43] Ben Hurst: You’re doing it big right now. You’re doing [00:25:45] it big.
[00:25:45] Tessa Khan: Yeah. I mean, you know, the co the cost of living is, is gonna be the thing that. It decides how people vote in the next election because of course, like, you know, there’s an expression, you know, a great expression that came out of France during the sort of yellow vest movement [00:26:00] there, which was, you know, it’s hard to think about the end of the world when you can’t think about the end of the month, you know?
[00:26:04] Tessa Khan: And, um, that the reason that our energy bills were the highest in Europe. In 2022. And, and for a while after that is because of how exceptionally dependent we [00:26:15] are on gas in this country to heat our homes to also generate a chunk of our electricity. And the reality is that, you know, renewable energy, the nice thing about renewable energy is that it’s free at the sort of point of its source, like the sun or the wind.[00:26:30]
[00:26:30] Tessa Khan: Um, and in the, there’s a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built. That means. That there will be costs in the short term, but in the longer term, it absolutely will bring down our energy bills if you insulate your home, you know, that’s also a way of bringing down your energy bill and [00:26:45] also creating a much more comfortable way to live.
[00:26:48] Maryam Pasha: Okay.
Favorite Climate Success Story
[00:26:48] Maryam Pasha: I’m gonna ask one last question.
[00:26:50] Ben Hurst: No, next put guest, move forward.
[00:26:53] Maryam Pasha: No. One last question and then we’ll go. ’cause I always love asking people this. Do you have a favorite climate [00:27:00] success story?
[00:27:02] Tessa Khan: Yeah, I do actually. Um, it’s a recent one too. I have many. So I think that’s important to say ’cause I think there have been so many huge steps forward, um, for our movement, uh, in the [00:27:15] last few decades.
[00:27:15] Tessa Khan: But last November, um, the UK government. Despite being the second, you know, the UK is the second largest oil and gas producer in Europe. People may not know this, but we extract roughly a million barrels of oil and [00:27:30] gas every day from the North Sea, which is quite a lot. Yeah. Um, but in November last year, the labor government confirmed that they would no longer be issuing any new licenses for oil and gas exploration, and they are doing that.
[00:27:43] Tessa Khan: For climate [00:27:45] reasons, you know, they’re not doing that because it makes economic sense, although in my view it does. Or energy security sense, which again, in my view it does. But because they accept that you cannot issue new licenses to explore for oil and gas if you’re gonna stay within safe [00:28:00] climate limits, and that is.
[00:28:01] Tessa Khan: Like, especially in the current context where lots of governments are doing everything that they can to slow down progress on climate change, the fossil fuel industry is having an amazing time. In some respects, like that is a huge [00:28:15] achievement and that is thanks to a public movement, demanding an end. To new one, I guess.
[00:28:19] Tessa Khan: So that’s well done. All of you.
Wrap Up and Credits
[00:28:27] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for joining us this week. We really hope you enjoyed this [00:28:30] episode.
[00:28:30] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s release. While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:28:38] Maryam Pasha: Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the Apology
[00:28:41] Ben Hurst: executive produced by Josie Colter,
[00:28:44] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben [00:28:45] Beheshty
[00:28:45] Ben Hurst: Music, also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:28:47] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Izzy Gladston.
[00:28:50] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:28:52] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:28:54] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha,
[00:28:55] Maryam Pasha: and remember,
[00:28:57] Ben Hurst: stay [00:29:00] curious.
