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Is critical mineral mining at risk of creating new harms as it solves old ones? Yes, if we don’t course correct now. Lithium, cobalt, and nickel are essential for the energy transition, but their extraction often leaves destruction behind. Galina Angarova, a member of an Indigenous group in Siberia; the Buryat peoples, joins Climate Curious to unpack the dilemmas of critical mineral mining and how to fix it. As Galina says, “we need to start from ourselves. We have to start with our human transformation.”
Further resources:
How to live with fire, Oral McGuire
00:55 Introduction to Indigenous rights and their role in biodiversity
01:56 Meet Galina Angarova
03:02 Galina’s background and heritage
09:24 Early activism as a member of an Indigenous group in Siberia; the Buryat peoples
11:51 The role of Indigenous People in the green transition
16:04 Systemic issues in mining minerals
22:04 The solution: human transformation
26:54 Understanding Indigenous legal frameworks
28:02 The right to free, prior, and informed consent
29:18 The need for communication
31:11 Indigenous solutions for climate action!
32:07 Traditional fire management techniques
36:12 Soil management practices
41:42 The power of mangroves
43:58 Climate confessions
48:47 Final thoughts
Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
Transcript
Introduction to Climate Curious Podcast
[00:00:00] Galina Angarova: In order to achieve anything important in terms of climate change, in terms of biodiversity protection, we need to start from ourselves. We have to start with our human transformation.
[00:00:14] Ben Hurst: This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or [00:00:20] confused by climate change.
[00:00:21] Maryam Pasha: I’m Maryam Pasha, the director and curator at TEDxLondon and the co host of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:27] Ben Hurst: Hi, I’m Ben Hurst. Activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like and self confessed climate normie.
[00:00:39] Maryam Pasha: [00:00:40] Hey, Ben. Hey. We have not done this for a long time.
[00:00:44] Ben Hurst: I know. It’s back, back in the hot seat.
[00:00:47] Maryam Pasha: Very exciting. Very exciting to be here. I think this is a very special conversation.
Indigenous Rights and Biodiversity
[00:00:55] Maryam Pasha: Um, we have talked about indigenous rights on the podcast [00:01:00] before, and we know some of the numbers, like. 80 percent of the world’s, uh, biodiversity is on indigenous, like it’s protected by indigenous people, but they have rights to less than 10 percent of their land, less than 1 percent of global funding reaches them.
[00:01:17] Um, and that indigenous people are basically the [00:01:20] best stewards in terms of like nature preservation, but also in terms of like preserving car, carbon sinks. So we know these numbers and we know these facts, but I think our next guest has kind of a unique perspective because she works with communities around the world.
[00:01:36] Um, she’s an indigenous person herself, and [00:01:40] I’m just really excited to talk about what, basically what the green transition and the impact it has on indigenous communities. Because it’s not something we talk about, right? Like we talk a lot about. the impact climate change has.
Meet Galina Angarova
[00:01:56] Maryam Pasha: So we’re joined this week listeners by the [00:02:00] amazing Galina Angarova.
[00:02:02] She’s executive director of the Securing Indigenous Peoples Rights in the Green Economy Coalition. She, uh, has represented indigenous peoples at the United Nations and she works in philanthropy and As you know, it’s so many different [00:02:20] roles. She’s been on the front line as an activist. She’s been in the role of working with philanthropy.
[00:02:24] She’s been working with organizations like the UN and she works with indigenous communities, kind of all around the world. Um, so pretty excited that she’s here to share this experience with us. And I don’t know, I think this conversation isn’t going to go. [00:02:40] necessarily in the direction we all think it might.
[00:02:43] Ben Hurst: Mm. I’m just surprised that she’s got enough time to be, to be here. Sounds like a busy lady, but I’m looking forward to the conversation.
[00:02:51] Maryam Pasha: Agreed, agreed. So, uh, let’s, let’s just jump in. Will you tell us a bit about your background and some of the, I guess, [00:03:00] actions and early work that you were involved in?
Galina’s Background and Heritage
[00:03:02] Galina Angarova: So, um, I come from an Indigenous community west of Lake Baikal, which is, um, the largest and the deepest freshwater lake containing 20 percent of the world’s fresh water in the world.
[00:03:15] It’s called the sacred lake among our people. It [00:03:20] is the sacred place where we perform our traditional ceremonies. Uh, so I come from the Abzai clan of the Iherit nation of the Buryat peoples. Um, we are big nation of about 400, 000 people. And I come from the Iherit nation, which is about [00:03:40] 70, 000 people, which is part of that bigger group of peoples, Buryat peoples.
[00:03:46] I currently live in the city of Portland, which is the traditional territory of the Multnomah people and a number of other indigenous peoples. Native to this land, uh, I’m an indigenous rights [00:04:00] activist, climate justice activist, land rights activist, um, a storyteller, a wife, an auntie, and I currently serve as the executive director of the SURGE Coalition, uh, which stands for Securing Indigenous Peoples Rights in the Green Economy.
[00:04:18] My people [00:04:20] are very ancient people. I have a lot of pride in who we are and what we bring to the world. And, um, we have a distinct culture, our own language, and traditional way of life that is currently being threatened by cultural, political, and environmental [00:04:40] changes and challenges. Our culture is based upon strong philosophical ideas about the natural world.
[00:04:48] And, um, humans place in it, it is expressed through enduring traditional practices, including shamanism, animism, and mythology. [00:05:00] And my people have always understood the importance of keeping the world in balance through our cultural traditions. We revere our ancestors, we revere our spirits. spirits of the mountains, spirits of the lake, spirits [00:05:20] of our rivers, and we engage in ceremony honoring all of the spirits that help us through navigating through this life.
[00:05:31] And that’s who I am. I was raised by my grandmother. She was one of the traditional knowledge holders for [00:05:40] my people, for my clan. I remember my first distinct memories are sitting in ceremony with my grandmother and other grandmothers in my village. And, um, Yeah, I, I lived in the village until, um, around 10 years old and I had to move, uh, to [00:06:00] a city, to the city with my mother.
[00:06:02] I remember when I was a child, my grandmother, uh, used to predict the weather. She would wake up in the morning and she knew the weather for the day and she knew what would what harvest was going to look like way before the harvest month. [00:06:20] So, and, uh, she could read the land, she could talk to the wind. Um, she could do a lot of things that I think that today, modern human beings are not capable of doing anymore.
[00:06:36] But it’s been only what, 40 to 50 years, right? The [00:06:40] difference between where I was as a child and now, like living in a Urban setting. So, and my grandmother always had an excess of milk, sour cream, raspberries, blueberries, some wild garlic, some of our traditional foods, and she would [00:07:00] share that out with other families.
[00:07:03] You know, and other families in return would give us the excess of their meat or fish that they brought from the lake and at any given time we had enough of everything. We didn’t hoard, but we had enough of everything. And like, as a child I [00:07:20] could go to any house in my village, any time of the day I would be fed.
[00:07:26] You know, would be taken care of. We didn’t need child care. We didn’t need gyms because we would run in the forest, we would play in the river. And, uh, my grandma’s, this house was just on the river, right in the [00:07:40] river and the, the village is big enough, but it looks like a bowl, right? If you can imagine a bowl where I can see everything from the point where I am, right?
[00:07:52] So every grandmother could see their children. The kids playing somewhere else, about a mile [00:08:00] away, maybe like a kilometer away. And as I was saying that if we end up in a different, in a different part of the village, we will be herded by one of the grandmothers to have lunch
[00:08:17] in
[00:08:17] Galina Angarova: a house, right? Yeah. [00:08:20] So that’s what What, that’s what, how it was in my childhood, 50 some years, 40 some years ago.
[00:08:29] Ben Hurst: Your grandmother sounds incredible. She sounds like the kind of person whose house I would have been in. She sounds like the kind of person that I would have liked to, to hang out with. And this, this is like incredible because I [00:08:40] guess this is maybe my first. My first time hearing somebody talk about these things in, in, in the sense that this is not the work that they do, but this is who they are, you know, like where this is part of your identity rather than just a job that you’re doing or something like a passion project or something that you’re interested [00:09:00] in.
[00:09:00] And so I’m wondering how you get from. How you get from that position of just being, living in that bowl and being in that environment that is sustainable to move into a place where activism and organizing is something that, that, it was that thrust upon you or was that a choice that you [00:09:20] made or did you step outside and think this is something I’ve got to do?
[00:09:23] How did you get to that space?
Early Activism and Environmental Challenges
[00:09:24] Galina Angarova: I think it’s that love for My people and the place I’m from, it’s the love for the lake. Um, the lake I was talking about, right? It’s um, it’s a mile deep. It’s one of the most beautiful places on [00:09:40] Earth. It has such a profound spiritual significance for my people. I remember when I was a kid, I could drink from the lake without any filtration.
[00:09:51] That’s how pristine it was. No longer. Unfortunately, and I, I remember like my [00:10:00] first thinking about being an activist was when I was a teenager and I participated in, um, like almost a two week walk against the pulp and paper mill on the lake. I walked through, uh, from the city where I lived [00:10:20] at the time with a number of other people in a peaceful protest.
[00:10:24] We want to shut it down for, for good. Because it was spewing, it had been spewing tons of chemicals, including chlorine, right into the water. We just couldn’t bear that anymore. Like, there was a lot of [00:10:40] organizing around that. I think people really united, and that’s where I see the strength for the future.
[00:10:48] I was saying just recently that dictators come and go, and politicians come and go, nation states come and go, right? If you think about it. But people stay. You know, [00:11:00] and I think that in 80%, maybe more, we’re more like each other than we are different from each other. Right. All we want, we want clean drinking water.
[00:11:13] We want clean air. We want our children to be taken care of. We want a [00:11:20] roof above our heads. All these things should be uniting us as people. As peoples, rather than dividing us, and, um, and a lot of times we’re just fed false narratives. And I think this is the time for us to build our true agency as individuals, [00:11:40] as peoples, to think from the place of who we are, you know, and what we want, not somebody else.
The Green Transition and Indigenous Impact
[00:11:51] Maryam Pasha: One of the questions I have for you, um, because it’s kind of incredible to think about it in this holistic way, those [00:12:00] of us on the outside, those of us kind of not in this every day, we hear a lot about how climate change. Is impacting the livelihoods of people around the world, indigenous communities, non indigenous communities, but could you talk to us a little bit about how the green transition is impacting, um, indigenous communities?
[00:12:18] Because I think this is [00:12:20] a hidden story that I think, and I think it’s a tough one that we have to wrestle with.
[00:12:25] Galina Angarova: So I’ll, I’ll start with the fact that it’s been almost 33 years since their Re Earth Summit in 1992, which saw the birth of three landmark treaties, [00:12:40] each focusing on a critical dimension of ecological sustainability.
[00:12:43] It’s climate change, biological diversity, And desertification. It’s UNFCCC, UNCBD, and UNCCD. Right? So back in 1992, global CO2 emissions were around 22 billion metric tons annually. [00:13:00] And by 2024, these emissions are estimated to exceed 40 billion metric tons.
[00:13:08] Ben Hurst: Almost double.
[00:13:09] Galina Angarova: Almost double. This stark increase shows that despite decades of identifying the problem, and global efforts to curb [00:13:20] carbon emissions.
[00:13:21] We have nearly doubled our emissions.
Systemic Issues and Root Causes
[00:13:23] Galina Angarova: As you said, one of the key reasons for this failure is our current economic systems and that there are fundamentally flawed. There are built on the fallacy of wealth creation at all costs [00:13:40] and the myth of infinite growth. That’s what I was like, let’s talk about the root causes.
[00:13:49] The truth is that life. On earth is sustained by a delicate balance of interconnected systems and disrupting this balance has [00:14:00] far reaching consequences. Every action that we take has a consequence. This is the reality that is deeply understood by many indigenous peoples. We recognize that someone always pays the price.
[00:14:16] For this time, destabilizing this [00:14:20] equilibrium too often, it is the most vulnerable among us who bear the burden, those least responsible for the crisis, yet, yet most affected by its consequences, and it’s true for indigenous peoples. So to your question, one of [00:14:40] the solutions put forward to address the issue of climate change is the transition to a green economy to net zero.
[00:14:50] Which aims to mitigate carbon emissions through the development and deployment of renewable energy technologies and electric mobility, including electric vehicles. [00:15:00] Though this idea sounds really hopeful and optimistic, I too want to believe in it. It’s current frameworks perpetuate the same harms of the fossil fuel industry.
[00:15:13] So driving a new wave of extractivism into Indigenous lands to supply the green [00:15:20] economy with minerals like lithium, copper, cobalt, nickel, and others, which I named before, is devastating Indigenous peoples lands and territories.
[00:15:30] Ben Hurst: Right, I saw something today about, that’s so trippy, I saw something today about companies that are [00:15:40] bidding for the right to drill in the Arctic as the ice levels are reducing because the
[00:15:51] land is resource rich and even though we’re at the point of Collapse rather than thinking maybe we should stop people are thinking. How do we get [00:16:00] more? How do we exhaust these reasons? How do we drain these resources for capital gain? I love a critique of capitalism. Honestly, I feel like I feel like it makes it Helps make sense of the world and that we’re living in and but is that what’s happening?
[00:16:14] Is it is it about? when you talk about that new wave of extract, wave of [00:16:20] extractivism, sorry, what does that look like in terms of, are you talking about people building electric cars? Are we talking about people mining materials for solar panels? I don’t know what, what you mean.
[00:16:32] Galina Angarova: Yes. It’s, um, it’s building individual electric cars.
[00:16:36] Um, to, um, [00:16:40] sort of, uh, support the existing individualistic, um, markets mark in to support continue supported the market economy that we currently have. Um, [00:17:00] I do believe that it’s not possible to mine ourselves out of the climate crisis, unfortunately. And, um, we know that 10%. Uh, of all CO2 emissions are coming from the mining industry, you know, so it is a huge dilemma.
[00:17:19] It [00:17:20] is a huge dilemma to me. We have to go to the, as I mentioned, we have to go to the root causes and the root causes because we put profit over everything. Imagine you are buying this electric car, 40, 000, right? Great. But it’s not 40, 000. To you, it’s [00:17:40] 40, 000. But if we take the cost of externalities, and I don’t like to call them externalities, they’re internalities, then you’re paying double, triple, and it’s not reflected in the price tag because somebody else is paying for [00:18:00] that.
[00:18:00] Right.
[00:18:00] Galina Angarova: Somebody else is being displaced. Somebody else is being ravaged and killed. Right. So again, going to the root causes, it’s the system that we currently live in that puts profit over everything. But if we had a [00:18:20] system that put the well being of people in not just people, but other than human family, the picture will be completely reshuffled.
[00:18:33] But that work needs to be done here on, in our newer paths. Because [00:18:40] again, we have to start having our own agency and to think differently. You know, reclaim, reclaim who we are.
Personal Reflections and Solutions
[00:18:50] Galina Angarova: You know, at this point, the way I see it, as humans, as individual humans, right, we’re, our microbiome’s [00:19:00] hacked, our taste buds hacked, our minds are being hacked by somebody else telling how to think, right, and how to feel, and what to eat.
[00:19:13] And I think this is the important moment in history when every individual has to reclaim that [00:19:20] agency about how you feel, how you think. Stop believing in some of these structures, you know, and imposed or inherited belief systems, which a lot of them are trauma informed. You know, [00:19:40] a lot of times we find ourselves in that fight, flight and freeze modes, right?
[00:19:47] Coming from a place of.
[00:19:53] Resistance and trauma. Where the answers are somewhere else.[00:20:00]
[00:20:03] Maryam Pasha: I think it’s really hard. for people to hear this because
[00:20:12] I’m just curious to know how you well, what I’m going to say is I feel like it’s really hard for people to hear this because I feel like for a lot of [00:20:20] people just thinking about, okay, well, we have to do everything differently. Like we have to, you know, we have to have the renewable energy, we have to have the electric car, we have to have the, you know, all this kind of stuff that we’ve told that we have to change feels overwhelming.
[00:20:36] And then you to be then told that all those [00:20:40] things actually just continue to create harm, just in a different way. It’s, it can feel even more overwhelming. And I’m wondering whether, how do you, how do you see a path? Like, like where do you, yeah. [00:21:00] Cause I can imagine that that can make people feel like, Oh, well, I just give up then.
[00:21:05] Like, I just don’t know what to do because it feels like everything I do is wrong. You know, and I, and I know that’s not the right answer and that’s very selfish, but I think that maybe it can feel overwhelming, I guess, because these systems [00:21:20] can feel overwhelming.
[00:21:21] Ben Hurst: Yeah, I feel overwhelmed and I think, like, what I’m hearing you say is like, the solution to this problem is not to buy more stuff that changes, because it doesn’t fix it, right?
[00:21:31] It’s still extractive, it still leads us down the same path. And then, and then I feel like where you maybe are at an [00:21:40] advantage. in relation to someone like me, is that you grew up in traditions that were preserving the land. You grew up, you, you know that you’ve lived and embodied that experience. And I’m just been living in London.
[00:21:53] So I don’t know, like, what do I do? Do I go into my garden? Do I start? Like digging weeds out, like what am I meant to plant [00:22:00] tomatoes? I don’t know what the steps are.
[00:22:04] Galina Angarova: Yeah, these are really important questions and I think I don’t have all the answers. I am also in that quest from, for understanding the world around me, right?
[00:22:14] It’s, even though, yes, I had that privilege of being born and raised [00:22:20] by my relatives in that setting, right? And having a glimpse of who we can become or were in the past, it’s still, I live in an urban environment right now, and always come back to, I studied Buddhism for a little bit back, back in the, a [00:22:40] few years ago, and one of the tenets for the, for Buddhism, if you’re born into this world, You still have a footprint.
[00:22:48] You cause suffering somewhere else. It’s like the butterfly effect, right? And how do you offset some of that by doing the things that are in service to others? [00:23:00] And that’s what I’m guided by. What am I doing on a daily basis to be loving, to be of service to somebody else? On a smaller scale? On a larger scale?
[00:23:12] I don’t know. Like, I’m just trying. I’m trying my best as a human being, living. in the current context. And then,[00:23:20]
[00:23:22] being inquisitive, I think asking yourself a question, this is the first step. Just the first step. That, that worked for me. Like, if somebody says something, and I was like, why? Why? Why China is the enemy? I have to, [00:23:40] I have to ask those questions, right? I’m not just going to blindly follow everything that everybody says, right?
[00:23:48] And then, I think we’re really, I mentioned that a couple of times, regaining our [00:24:00] agency as humans. That means in order to achieve anything important in terms of climate change, in terms of biodiversity protection, we need to start from ourselves. We have to start with our human transformation. You know, questioning the pathways, the neural pathways that we currently have.
[00:24:18] Really questioning, is it coming [00:24:20] from the place of truth? Or is it coming from trauma? Has it been informed? by a news network or has it been informed by your true self? Right? So that’s the first thing I would do. And now I remember when [00:24:40] I worked with you, Miriam, right? I am always guided by this question.
[00:24:46] Is it coming from the place of abundance? You know, because I do believe that as humans we’re abundant and we’re beautiful. Or is it come coming from the place of lack? [00:25:00] Right? Or from the place of wanting something from, from the situation, from other people. And that’s been a guiding question for me. Like every interaction I have, like I came here, and I came here with the intention to give.[00:25:20]
[00:25:20] Because I think, sometimes I doubt that my voice is important. I always have this doubt. And whether I’m, It’s worth it to talk, even talk publicly about things. But then I come around and look, okay, everybody’s worth it. Everybody has a voice. So am I. [00:25:40] So why not?
[00:25:42] Maryam Pasha: I think that so much of what you’re talking about is about deep work that needs to be done.
[00:25:47] You know, within ourselves as well, that it starts inside rather than constantly looking for an external solution, that those solutions can’t be, they can’t be [00:26:00] enduring and really effective until they’re guided. And you talk about this in your TED talk about with the right intention. One thing I wanted to ask you is, we’ve talked a lot about the extractive minerals, the transition minerals, and I know that you and I have talked in the past about how this isn’t about saying no to everything, right?
[00:26:18] This is about really [00:26:20] bringing everyone together, and I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about that, about how, at the moment, the sense I get is that indigenous communities and local communities are completely outside. Like, you know, Ben, what Ben was mentioning about these companies bidding on mining in a land that they have no connection to, as if [00:26:40] it’s like empty.
[00:26:41] I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what does a process that respects agency and that engages the people who are most affected, the most vulnerable communities really look like? Do we ever do it?
Understanding Indigenous Legal Frameworks
[00:26:54] Maryam Pasha: You know, can you talk us through that a little bit?
[00:26:58] Galina Angarova: It just comes from respect. [00:27:00] You know, we have our own indigenous legal frameworks, indigenous people’s legal frameworks, uh, such as the UN Declaration and the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
[00:27:08] And, um, this document was adopted in 2007 and it provides, um, minimum standard standards, uh, of engagement with [00:27:20] indigenous peoples. So, there’s a right called Free, Prior, and Informed Consent. You know, it’s, it’s um, this right is really unique to Indigenous Peoples. It’s both a process, a procedural right, and um, a substantive right.
[00:27:37] And that’s a framework of [00:27:40] engagement with Indigenous Peoples. It’s prescribed by that main document that I mentioned, the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, and it’s directly connected to another right, a fundamental right for Indigenous Peoples. It’s called the right to self determination.
[00:27:57] It’s the right to determine your cultural, political, [00:28:00] social, and other priorities.
The Right to Free, Prior, and Informed Consent
[00:28:02] Galina Angarova: So but I will specifically focus on this right to free, prior informed consent. What, what does it mean? As I mentioned, it’s both a process and a substance. Free means free of coercion and manipulation. Prior means before any development on [00:28:20] Indigenous Peoples lands and territories.
[00:28:21] Informed meaning fully informed, full disclosure, invest reports, feasibility studies, impact environmental reviews, and so on, disclosed to the people where that development is planned. And that those three free prior [00:28:40] informed, they constitute the process. That means that the company, when it comes to the land of Indigenous Peoples, they have to engage in a transparent, clear process.
[00:28:53] And then you come to consent, and that’s the substance of that right. That means Indigenous Peoples have [00:29:00] the right to either say yes or no to the project. And this is the right and the process and the protocol that a company and a government or a government can engage with Indigenous Peoples. Thank you.
The Importance of Communication
[00:29:18] Galina Angarova: because some communities [00:29:20] may agree to a project, other communities may not agree to a project, and there is a whole variety of responses that a community can give and can say yes, no, maybe, yes with conditions. To me, this is important. Communication is huge. 80 percent [00:29:40] um, of progress anywhere in our personal communication, organizational communication depends on that clarity.
[00:29:49] Right? On the clarity of how things are being communicated between, among parties. Imagine somebody coming to your house. [00:30:00] You know, it’s like, okay, you’re, you’re, you can move, you know, that’s it. We’re gonna build a, uh, uh, pipeline here, you know, or we’re gonna build a, uh, windmill here. Put up a, how would anybody [00:30:20] in the Western world react to it?
[00:30:21] Where individual property is, is, it’s just an important tenant of those Western societies, right? How would you feel about that? But it’s okay to come to Indigenous Peoples lands and territories and say, Hey, you’re gone. We’re moving you without any [00:30:40] conversation, without any consultation and consent from Indigenous Peoples.
[00:30:46] And of course, in the Western societies, the focus is more on individual rights and individual property rights. But for Indigenous Peoples, it’s communal, it’s collective self determination. As a right, as a [00:31:00] fundamental right, and, uh, right to free pride and informed consent are collective rights. So, and they are prescribed in the UN Declaration.
Indigenous Solutions for Climate Action
[00:31:11] Galina Angarova: So that’s what I would say here, and, you know, I really wanted to focus on Indigenous solutions, Indigenous led solutions, too, [00:31:20] if I may.
[00:31:21] Maryam Pasha: Yes, because that’s my, my question is that it’s, it’s There’s a lot of the narrative around this is like, Oh, indigenous wisdom. And it always feels very, um, yeah, fluffy,
[00:31:35] Galina Angarova: fluffy.
[00:31:36] Nobody knows what it is, right? Nobody knows. But, uh, the [00:31:40] things that are concrete, very concrete, and, uh, maybe sometimes when we are in this big gatherings, a lot of indigenous leaders, they come from all over the world and they talk about the solutions. They don’t talk about the specifics. But it’s important to talk about the specifics and, uh, let me name some of them [00:32:00] because I really, I prepared for it.
[00:32:03] So, um, let me.
Traditional Fire Management Techniques
[00:32:07] Galina Angarova: So indigenous communities worldwide have long practiced sustainable environmental stewardship, offering valuable lessons for contemporary climate action. And here are some of the concrete [00:32:20] examples. Let’s say traditional fire management. Which has been practiced by indigenous people since the time immemorial.
[00:32:29] Maryam Pasha: One example.
[00:32:30] Galina Angarova: Yes, one example. For thousands of years, Aboriginal Australians have employed cool burning techniques, setting low intensity [00:32:40] fires during specific seasons to manage the landscape. So this practice reduces fuel loads, thereby mitigating the risk of uncontrolled wildfires and promoting.
[00:32:52] Biodiversity by encouraging the growth of certain plant species. And, uh, [00:33:00] recently, these methods have been recognized and integrated into modern fire management strategies, demonstrating the effectiveness of indigenous knowledge in reducing wildfire risk. And you know what, what, what just happened, right?
[00:33:14] The fires in California. So, uh, unfortunately, [00:33:20] the regions like California landscapes and vegetations have been significantly altered, like over the last, what, 200 years? Um, introduction of non native grasses and eucalyptus trees for agriculture and landscaping. Uh, they altered the [00:33:40] state’s, uh, natural fire dynamics and there’s some Also, this, uh, invasive species have increased the prevalence in annual plants, which are more prone to wildfire compared to the native perennial vegetation.
[00:33:54] So that’s what’s happening, right? And, uh, I also wanted to give the example of the Yurok tribe in [00:34:00] Northern California. I have direct connections, uh, to some of the members of the Yurok tribe. They have, uh, they also started revitalizing traditional fire management, um, and, um, After a really long period when those practices were prohibited in California, and, uh, they are reintroducing cultural [00:34:20] burns and, uh, they’re aiming to enhance the, uh, the forest health, improve wildlife habitats and reduce the risk of severe wildfires.
[00:34:30] And in Northern California, which is not, which is notable, some of the, like, it’s not as altered as, um, uh, the middle. of the state and the [00:34:40] Southern California. So there are still, I would say, um, the native plant species are prevalent, especially where the Yurok tribe is. So it’s very, very relevant. So the cultural burns are very relevant there.
[00:34:54] So that’s just one.
[00:34:55] Maryam Pasha: I love it. I have a dozen. I have to tell you about [00:35:00] one of the most amazing videos I’ve ever seen. I got to work with, um, uh, first nation, uh, Australian fire. Um, We talked about fire and management of fire, like you said, and he showed me a video, his name’s Oral McGuire, and you can check his TED Talk out, it’s brilliant.
[00:35:16] He showed me a video, um, of an elder from his community, [00:35:20] who had set one of these cool burns, and he said, watch the insects on the tree. And in a cold burn, because it’s so, because it’s done in such a way that’s so managed and so perfectly in balance with nature, that it spreads so slowly that the insects move up the tree.
[00:35:39] So, [00:35:40] and it burns, and then when it’s done, they move back down. But then, He showed me the comparison of like a wildfire and how it just kills everything, and it was actually one of the most amazing things I’ve ever seen, to see how in tune nature is with these processes. So anyway, watch that talk, it’s excellent.[00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Galina Angarova: I will, I will. Orrin McGuire, right?
[00:36:03] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Oral McGuire. We’ll put it in the show notes.
[00:36:05] Galina Angarova: Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Give us
[00:36:09] Maryam Pasha: some more examples. Yes.
[00:36:11] Galina Angarova: Yes. Yes.
Soil Management Practices
[00:36:12] Galina Angarova: So, um, I want to give the example of soil management. So soil is [00:36:20] critical, right, in our work on climate change. Because it’s one of the largest, yeah,
[00:36:27] Ben Hurst: one of the largest.
[00:36:28] I knew it was going to be me in the garden. I knew I was going to have to
[00:36:30] Galina Angarova: go in the garden. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. So it’s the, one of the largest carbon sinks in the world, which contains [00:36:40] 2, 500 billion. Is, is this a 2. 500 billion tons of carbon, which is three times more than the atmosphere, and four times more than the all, all terrestrial vegetation.
[00:36:59] So [00:37:00] indigenous communities have developed sophisticated soil management techniques that enhance fertility, prevent erosion, and retain carbon in the soil. I’m going to give you an example of the Hopi people who deploy Dry farming techniques that involve [00:37:20] planting crops on gently sloped land. This method helps the soil retain moisture, capture runoffs from higher elevations, and regulate soil temperature, thereby maintaining soil structure and health, sequestering significant amounts of carbon, and thereby [00:37:40] supporting agriculture in arid environments.
[00:37:43] So it’s just one of the examples. You know, soil is everywhere, right? So, um, A lot of indigenous communities, especially, I would say, I don’t like the term Global South, but in the Global South, have used um, [00:38:00] traditional agriculture, um, have employed traditional agriculture. As a way to protect, uh, their soils.
[00:38:09] And, uh, like I come from the community where, uh, agriculture is not significant. Like, um, I come from the, uh, [00:38:20] um, gathering and, uh, hunt and gather community basically, so, uh, we just started incorporating, um, uh, traditional agriculture in 50 years. Just a little bit here and there, planting potatoes, carrots, um, but [00:38:40] those communities, let’s say Guatemala, Panama, Nicaragua, all of South America, probably all of Africa, they have, Asia, Asia, they have used, they have deployed, uh, [00:39:00] traditional agricultural methods, and, uh, What a, what a blessing, you know, because it’s, it’s just a, such a holistic way you’re engaging the entire community.
[00:39:11] You’re doing traditional, like, um, transfer of traditional knowledge from one generation to another. You’re engaging women, [00:39:20] elders, youth in those practices. You’re protecting the forest, you’re absorbing CO2. It’s magnificent. It’s in the, in those practices, those solutions, indigenous solutions are mostly land based and they’re simple.
[00:39:38] And that simplicity is the [00:39:40] beauty. You know, we don’t come up with like, uh, technological fixes, you know, them sophisticated technologies to do this. It’s just simple. I think that tree is the most sophisticated technologies for absorbing. Yeah. Yeah. I’m really
[00:39:58] Ben Hurst: encouraging as well to think that [00:40:00] this is not about everybody doing everything and like, so such an interesting example you give of coming from a hunter gatherer people because it means that like, it’s never too late to start incorporating these things.
[00:40:13] Um, and You don’t have to get every single thing perfect, and we’re all part, like you said, it’s part of a delicate [00:40:20] balance, and so finding your place in that balance, and finding your way of, of doing stuff, so I can either start fires or start gardening, I don’t know, I don’t know which, I’m not sure which one, do you have a number of examples?
[00:40:33] I don’t think you should
[00:40:34] Maryam Pasha: start fires, Ben. Okay, alright. you should wait and consult some experts.
[00:40:38] Ben Hurst: Yeah, yeah, of course, [00:40:40] whatever I do I’ll be consulting experts. What, give me um, one more. One more, one more,
[00:40:46] Galina Angarova: you know, Ben, I want to say, start your garden. It’s just going to be your way of, uh, resistance. You know, I had the biggest harvest of tomatoes last [00:41:00] year.
[00:41:00] Oh
[00:41:00] Galina Angarova: my God. I only planted three tomatoes and I had pounds or kilos and pounds and kilos of tomatoes. Ran out of people to give them to I’m serious. I’m serious. And like,
[00:41:15] and like, okay,
[00:41:16] Galina Angarova: I’m going to disrupt the economic system. I’m going to create a [00:41:20] barter system in my neighborhood. And like, if I have too many tomatoes, I’m going to barter them for zucchini, squash, whatever beans.
[00:41:28] And this way, like we’re all be fed like back in my village. So anyway, I’m, I’m all for individual gardens just in whatever way. [00:41:40] Ben, I want to give another example.
The Role of Mangroves in Climate Solutions
[00:41:42] Galina Angarova: I am fascinated by mangroves. I, I read that there are over 50 species worldwide among, um, they’re in different countries around the world in Benin, in Nigeria, in Colombia, in Mexico.[00:42:00]
[00:42:00] And, um, there are among the most effective plants that absorb, uh, carbon CO2. So many indigenous and land connected communities have stewarded those ecosystems. mangrove ecosystem since forever. And in regions like Benin and Nigeria, [00:42:20] local customs and spiritual beliefs play a significant role in preserving mangrove forests.
[00:42:26] So there are deities such as Zangbeto. Uh, revered as guardians of those ecosystems, ensuring that the areas remain sacred and protected from exploitation. So this [00:42:40] cultural reverence has been instrumental in expanding mangrove coverage and maintaining biodiversity. And I do believe that if we support, collectively support the mangrove reforestation, uh, That it will provide a huge, um, uh, benefit to the climate and supporting indigenous livelihoods, [00:43:00] supporting, um, their self determined decisions, um, is a climate solution.
[00:43:07] Ben Hurst: Mangroves are, mangroves are water trees. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s an interesting one. How do you support, so I have to find some, uh, some people who are [00:43:20] protecting some mangroves and yeah, many
[00:43:22] Galina Angarova: projects, there are many projects around the world is my dream to support many projects that, um, uh, it’s like Lokaika community in Nigeria, uh, to support them, um, Expanding the mangroves [00:43:40] and, uh, yeah, and perhaps do some exchanges and best practices in, uh, reforestation of mangroves.
[00:43:53] Ben Hurst: I’m Googling, I’m Googling these mangroves right now. I’m gonna find them.
Climate Confessions
[00:43:58] Ben Hurst: And now it’s [00:44:00] time for our climate confessions. Let’s fess up to the bad habits we just can’t kick.
[00:44:09] Maryam Pasha: I can give one climate confession. So one of my climate confessions right now is that, uh, I have a, uh, a three month old baby and the [00:44:20] amount of single use plastic that I use just to make my life easier. Is more than I ever have, and I’m so aware of it. Um, and it’s in everything. It’s, you know, and I, that’s my climate confession is having a baby.
[00:44:39] I mean, [00:44:40] we know that having children is not good for the planet, but just in the way you do it. The way that I’m doing it, I definitely have a lot more plastic in my life and that is, that’s my climate
[00:44:54] Ben Hurst: convention.
[00:44:56] Maryam Pasha: I’ve been saving it up for three months, I’ve been saving it up for three months and [00:45:00] feeling, feeling it every day.
[00:45:01] Oh, bad.
[00:45:03] Galina Angarova: Thank you for sharing. No, I, I think we have, we consume a lot of plastic, every single one of us, to be honest with you. And like, we’re conditioned to do that, and like, there’s so many ways not to by the industry, not to wrap everything in [00:45:20] plastic, but like, what are you going to do? Like sometimes that they put, um, fault on individuals, but the whole systems need to be reshuffled for, so that individuals contribute to the change, to the change, you know?
[00:45:36] Ben gda, do you have one?
[00:45:39] Ben Hurst: I’ve got one. We’ve [00:45:40] got a, we’re, we are having a, a coziness dispute in our house at the moment, and we can’t find a mutual temperature that works , because I’m, I’m cold blooded and my partner is warm blooded, and so we have a lot of. He and on 22 25 all the time and windows [00:46:00] open in the house and we recently decorated or attempted to decorate our bathroom.
[00:46:04] It didn’t go that well, but the bathroom window is almost always open in our house. So we’ve got to do some. I feel like maybe we need to invest in some double glazing or something. I don’t know, but it feels like a it feels like a long term solution. [00:46:20] And I’m not a long term thinker, so we will see, we’ll see.
[00:46:23] Um, I’m sure, I’m sure I’ll figure out a solution sooner rather than later. Do you have one?
[00:46:28] Galina Angarova: Yeah, I, I do. And this is something I’ve been debating and working on. It’s difficult. I eat meat.
[00:46:39] [00:46:40] Mmm.
[00:46:40] Galina Angarova: I, I come from a meat eating culture. And again, I always had to question whether I, my consumption of meat should be predetermined by my culture.
[00:46:51] Mmm. Mmm. So I’m trying, I’m experimenting with legumes these days. Uh, I’m trying to [00:47:00] track my protein intake. Um, so it’s difficult and maybe just, I don’t know, maybe that there is a good formula to this or not, but I, I just Maybe there, there’s someone who, who knows better [00:47:20] what would be the, the best and perfect climate, um, diet.
[00:47:25] So yeah. And I’m still in that, in that journey.
[00:47:29] Maryam Pasha: That’s such an interesting one. Cause I also struggle with this because I also eat meat and I feel strongly that if I stop eating meat, I stop having access to cultural food and I [00:47:40] feel like not being in my culture. One of the only ways I have access to it is through the food.
[00:47:45] And I, so I have a resistance to giving it up, even though I will say I have discovered some really cool chefs who are taking traditional food and trying to find ways to like remove the meat, but maintain the [00:48:00] flavor. And that’s cool to play with. So I’m, I’m happy people trying to do that, but I feel the same.
[00:48:06] Well, for me, it comes as like not wanting to just feeling so far away from my culture and I’m not wanting to give up yet another thing that connects me to it. A piece of
[00:48:16] Ben Hurst: yourself. Yeah.
[00:48:17] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. Uh, [00:48:20] what a incredible conversation.
[00:48:22] Ben Hurst: Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? Incredible. And lots of notes to leave for people to, yeah, sponsor mangroves.
[00:48:31] Um, but I’ve got, we need to leave a gardening tip, but don’t worry, I’ll create one. I’m going to start a garden. I’m going to start the garden. It’s great.
[00:48:39] Maryam Pasha: [00:48:40] You can update us episode by episode, Ben, on your garden and a couple of TED
[00:48:44] Ben Hurst: Talks to link as well.
Closing Remarks and Call to Action
[00:48:47] Maryam Pasha: Thank you, Galina, for taking the time to talk us through this work and the experience of these communities.
[00:48:52] It’s been wonderful to have you.
[00:48:54] Ben Hurst: Yeah,
[00:48:54] Maryam Pasha: thank you so much. And then what do we say?
[00:48:57] Ben Hurst: Oh, and remember, stay curious. [00:49:00] Thank you for joining us this week. We really hope you enjoyed this episode.
[00:49:05] Maryam Pasha: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure you get next week’s release.
[00:49:09] Ben Hurst: We are now officially crowdsourcing climate confession.
[00:49:12] So please leave yours in the ratings and the review section and we’ll shout out for you next time. And shout out to [00:49:20] our fabulous team behind the pod.
[00:49:22] Maryam Pasha: This episode was produced by Josie Colter. Artwork designed by Rebecca Mingus.
[00:49:27] Ben Hurst: Curation by Maryam Pasha.
[00:49:29] Maryam Pasha: Mix and engineers by Ben Beheshty.
[00:49:31] Ben Hurst: Music also by Ben Beheshty.
[00:49:34] Presented by Ben Hurst and Maryam Pasha. Remember stay [00:49:40] curious.
