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“The judge said ExxonMobil’s liability is unlimited, so that could cost them billions,” says Melinda Janki, the lawyer leading the fight to protect Guyana from the oil curse on the latest Climate Curious. Tune in to hear Melinda speak about legal wins against big oil and understand how you yourself can help keep big oil accountable for its polluting actions. Recorded live in conversation with Climate Curious co-host, Ben Hurst at TED Countdown 2025 in Nairobi, Kenya.
Watch Melinda’s talk at TED Countdown 2025, How we took an oil giant, and won https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj5jM6MANUo
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Introduction
00:38 ExxonMobil’s legal battles in Guyana
02:51 Challenges and legal victories
03:04 Empowering environmental litigation
03:49 Global implications and future plans
07:45 The bigger picture: oil industry viability
09:31 Conclusion
Introduction
[00:00:00] Maryam Pasha: Welcome to Climate Quickies, bite-sized nuggets of climate Goodness. From our TEDx London experts in under five minutes
[00:00:08] Ben Hurst: in this week’s climate, curious, we are heading to Guyana and catching up with an environmental lawyer about trying big [00:00:15] oil in. Cool.
[00:00:16] Ben Hurst: Our guest is the powerhouse lawyer behind the case.
[00:00:19] Ben Hurst: Legal Titan, Melinda Janke. She’s filed 10 cases against the oil industry, most notably with ExxonMobil on the court rulings that big oil didn’t [00:00:30] see coming in Guyana. Here’s Melinda Janke. Stay curious.
ExxonMobil’s Legal Battles in Guyana
[00:00:38] Melinda Janki: I’ve now filed 10 cases against the oil, by the way. So we’ve had decisions from the courts, for example, that [00:00:45] ExxonMobil. Guyana Limited is liable for. All the costs of cleaning up if there is a spill and restoring the environment and compensating people. The judge said that liability is unlimited, so that could cost billions of dollars.
[00:00:58] Melinda Janki: And then he said, well, they don’t. [00:01:00] ExxonMobil guy doesn’t have the money to pay for that, so he ordered an unlimited parent company guarantee.
[00:01:06] Melinda Janki: In the two weeks following that decision from the judge, this is just two years ago. In the two weeks following the decision from the judge, ExxonMobil corporations share price went down by 12%.
[00:01:15] Melinda Janki: Right.
[00:01:16] Ben Hurst: Right. Of course it did, because the people were thinking, where’s the money gonna come from? Crazy.
[00:01:21] Melinda Janki: So they’ve, uh, ExxonMobil GaN has been ordered to produce insurance. The judges have said they were in breach of their permit. They have been told they have to [00:01:30] comply with international law. They have to meet standards of transparency and accountability.
[00:01:33] Melinda Janki: Mm-hmm. There is a stay of the, of the order for the unlimited parent company guarantee. But the judge said you’ve gotta produce a GAR guarantee in the meantime of $2 billion. We’ve had a judgment, which says that environmental [00:01:45] impact assessments now have to take into account the scope three emissions from Exxon Mobil’s offshore drilling.
[00:01:52] Ben Hurst: What’s
[00:01:53] Melinda Janki: a a, a scope three emission If you produce oil and then you sell it. Somewhere else, you [00:02:00] still have to take into account that oil when it’s burned further down the line.
[00:02:04] Ben Hurst: Okay.
[00:02:04] Melinda Janki: So when you look at oil extraction, you don’t just say, this is the pollution that’s come from the oil we burned. In order to get the oil out
[00:02:11] Ben Hurst: right,
[00:02:11] Melinda Janki: you have to take into account all of the pollution
[00:02:14] Ben Hurst: that will be
[00:02:14] Melinda Janki: forced from [00:02:15] that oil.
[00:02:15] Melinda Janki: No matter where in the world it’s burned. Wow. And that is actually 90% of the pollution that comes from the oil.
[00:02:22] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:22] Melinda Janki: I know people talk about emissions. We should stop talking about emissions. We’re not, this isn’t emissions. This is pollution. Mm-hmm. This is nasty [00:02:30] greenhouse gas pollution that is overheating the planet.
[00:02:32] Melinda Janki: Why are people still talking about emissions? So anyway, we’ve got that decision. Which means now it’s going to be harder for the government to justify saying to ExxonMobil, GaN and any other oil company, you [00:02:45] can go ahead and um, and do oil. We’re gonna say, well look at all the pollution. How does that work?
Challenges and Legal Victories
[00:02:51] Melinda Janki: In one of the cases, the judge said the pipeline permit was unlawfully granted.
[00:02:56] Ben Hurst: Oh
[00:02:56] Melinda Janki: yes. I think one of my favorite things coming out of the court [00:03:00] though, is that from the Caribbean Court of Justice, which is the Apex Court, there’s no appeal from this. Mm-hmm.
Empowering Environmental Litigation
[00:03:04] Melinda Janki: The judges said basically, if you come to court.
[00:03:07] Melinda Janki: To protect the environment and you are doing this in good faith and you lose, you should not have to pay the costs of the other side.
[00:03:14] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:03:14] Melinda Janki: That’s a [00:03:15] huge step forward because it means now people can go to court and they don’t have to be frightened that they’re gonna be landed with a huge bill.
[00:03:21] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:03:22] Melinda Janki: So that makes it much, much easier for people to fight against the oil industry.
[00:03:26] Ben Hurst: So is that, has that resulted in a increase of people? [00:03:30] Coming forward to challenge,
[00:03:31] Melinda Janki: it has, unfortunately, we can’t actually respond to all of those requests.
[00:03:36] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:03:36] Melinda Janki: Okay. We don’t have the funding to pay the lawyers, and you’ve gotta pay lawyers. I’m not using lawyers from civil society and NGOs. We use lawyers that are litigators and that [00:03:45] know what they’re doing.
[00:03:45] Melinda Janki: And I, I know that sounds harsh, but that’s, we gotta deal with the real world.
Global Implications and Future Plans
[00:03:49] Melinda Janki: This decision on the costs actually binds five countries already.
[00:03:54] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:03:54] Melinda Janki: You know, which is phenomenal. And I think people in other countries can also use this. They should take this [00:04:00] decision and say to their judges, look, we want to, um, we want the same impact.
[00:04:04] Melinda Janki: We wanna be able to protect the planet and not be at so much risk. And, um, you know, you may recall the Shell Client, earth Shell Case where they had an award of costs against them. [00:04:15] That’s. That wasn’t good.
[00:04:17] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:17] Melinda Janki: Not, not good for, for, um, protecting the climate in terms of the other companies. So hes, and the Chinese National Offshore Oil Corporation, they are covens with ExxonMobil and Guyana.
[00:04:27] Melinda Janki: The courts have said that, um, [00:04:30] actually Hess and CO can’t use their petroleum production license to produce oil.
[00:04:36] Ben Hurst: Okay.
[00:04:36] Melinda Janki: So they got the license, but they can’t produce any oil under
[00:04:39] Ben Hurst: it. Can’t do it. Yeah.
[00:04:40] Melinda Janki: Also, if they do that. That will be treated as a criminal offense [00:04:45] committed by ExxonMobil because only they have an environmental permit and they can’t allow the other two to extract oil.
[00:04:51] Ben Hurst: Melinda, it sounds like you’ve got these guys on the ropes now. You, you start like you applied a lot of pressure over here, which is good.
[00:04:58] Melinda Janki: I had wish, I [00:05:00] mean, we need to apply far more pressure than we’re doing. The courts have also said that you remember I said that ExxonMobil’s got this liability and it’s unlimited.
[00:05:09] Melinda Janki: The courts have said that Hess and Och have joint and several liability with ExxonMobil. Wow. And what [00:05:15] that means is if Exxon doesn’t pay up, Hess and Ock have to.
[00:05:19] Ben Hurst: And are they, is is Hess and Och the parent company?
[00:05:22] Melinda Janki: Well, these are the companies, the offshore subsidiaries.
[00:05:25] Ben Hurst: Okay. Right.
[00:05:25] Melinda Janki: And then there’s a whole nother battle about parenting company guarantees.
[00:05:29] Melinda Janki: So [00:05:30] technically Hess and Ceno have. Unlimited liability because they have joint and several liability. And the courts have said that ExxonMobil Guyana has unlimited liability. I’m not sure that the parent companies know this, [00:05:45] and I’m not sure that the shareholders know this.
[00:05:47] Ben Hurst: Right? ’cause when they do, you’re gonna see another drop in their
[00:05:49] Melinda Janki: share prices.
[00:05:50] Melinda Janki: I think. It’s certainly a matter of concern.
[00:05:53] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:05:54] Melinda Janki: We’ve still got the biggest climate change case in the world going through the courts. The government of Guyana and [00:06:00] ExxonMobil tried to strike it out and they failed. So this case will now, will now go to trial.
[00:06:05] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:05] Melinda Janki: And that’s a very, that’s a very good thing.
[00:06:07] Melinda Janki: It’s the. It’s a case that’s based on the right to healthy environment. Mm-hmm. Article 1 49 J of ish Constitution. And I’m very pleased with this [00:06:15] because I actually lobbied many, many, many years ago for the right to healthy environment to be put in the Constitution. Mm-hmm. And parliament. Did that, and they put it in the fundamental rights section, which is brilliant, which means it’s enforceable.
[00:06:28] Ben Hurst: Okay,
[00:06:29] Melinda Janki: so we can go to court [00:06:30] on that. I’m also pleased that in one of our cases, the Caribbean Court of Justice, our highest court of appeal refer to the Zu agreement on public participation and public access to information in environmental matters. And I [00:06:45] worked on that very early on.
[00:06:46] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:47] Melinda Janki: And I’m also pleased that the Caribbean Court of Justice cited Article 36 of the Constitution, which says that the wellbeing of the nation depends on preserving clean air, fertile soils, pure water, and the rich.
[00:06:59] Melinda Janki: [00:07:00] Diversity of ecosystems, et cetera. And I wrote that.
[00:07:03] Ben Hurst: Mm.
[00:07:04] Melinda Janki: So
[00:07:05] Ben Hurst: couple throwbacks.
[00:07:06] Melinda Janki: So it’s, it’s nice to see Yeah. That this, this work that I did in the past is still having, is having an impact now. And so, [00:07:15] as I’ve said, we’ve had a great three years.
[00:07:16] Melinda Janki: I’ve got a super legal team and I wanna give a name check to two lawyers in particular.
[00:07:21] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:21] Melinda Janki: Tim Prude ho, he’s an English barrister with an excellent Caribbean practice. And Anna Kaye, Elizabeth Brown, who is a lawyer [00:07:30] from Jamaica, who is a superb junior counselor and better than any of her contemporaries that I have met anywhere, including her contemporaries in the United States and the United Kingdom.
[00:07:40] Ben Hurst: Shout out to Tim and Anna man.
[00:07:41] Melinda Janki: Yeah. Doing good job. Absolutely. So three years on, [00:07:45] yeah.
The Bigger Picture: Oil Industry Viability
[00:07:45] Melinda Janki: We have been beating ExxonMobil and we have been beating the government of Guyana and big change the Guyanese. People understand now that oil is a curse.
[00:07:54] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:07:55] Melinda Janki: And of course, you know, people are gonna take the sponsorship money from ExxonMobil.
[00:07:58] Melinda Janki: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why not? [00:08:00] People need to live. Mm-hmm. People are ready for an alternative, right? They’re ready for a hundred percent renewable energy. They’re ready for protected areas. Mm-hmm. And they’re ready for, for a proper deal on carbon credits. Not the deal that the government [00:08:15] has struck, and which I have written about and I’ve actually written to the president and told him that his carbon credit steel is, was using Aminian lands is unconstitutional.
[00:08:24] Melinda Janki: It’s a violation of the rights of their, of Aminian property rights.
[00:08:28] Ben Hurst: This is such interesting stuff. [00:08:30] It’s such a good list of things, of achievements that you’ve had. And I’m wondering in terms of like the, the tangible change that this causes, what does it actually do? Does it mean that, like are we talking about people ended up in prison here?
[00:08:42] Ben Hurst: Are we talking about slowing down people [00:08:45] who are trying to draw for oil? Like what’s the actual tangible impact of, of all of these different cases that are in the court at the moment?
[00:08:51] Melinda Janki: Well, I think the obvious answer is that we’re making it more difficult. Mm-hmm. And when you make it more difficult, it means that it’s gonna take longer.
[00:08:58] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:59] Melinda Janki: And things that [00:09:00] take longer also cost more money. Mm-hmm. I mean, basically, Ben, the oil industry is not viable.
[00:09:06] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:09:06] Melinda Janki: Okay. It’s been subsidized to the tune of $7 trillion in 2023. Oh God. Remove those subsidies and the industry will [00:09:15] collapse and, and renewable energy will outcompete fossil fuels immediately.
[00:09:19] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:20] Melinda Janki: And so the problem that we have is, is the subsidies, and we just have to keep on, keep on fighting until we can attack those subsidies directly, which is actually a case I [00:09:30] want to do.
Conclusion
[00:09:31] Ben Hurst: Thanks for listening to this quickie.
[00:09:33] Maryam Pasha: This episode was created by our superstar podcast team at TenX London. Until next time,
[00:09:38] Ben Hurst: stay curious.
