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“The deal is, we’re gonna get the revolution we deserve,” says sociologist, author, and apocalyptic optimist, Dana R. Fisher. Having spent 26 years studying and documenting activism, Climate Curious host Maryam Pasha hears what it takes to forge unstoppable solidarity in the collective climate movement. We look at how turning to big tech’s quick fixes is not the answer, how the youth movement has been sidelined by the political establishment, and why real systemic change is only built from the ground up, grassroots style!
Dana’s book is here: Saving Ourselves,
Check out her TED Talk and her new pod Apocalyptic Optimist Podcast!
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Apocalyptic Optimist Returns
00:27 Democracy Crisis Update
01:36 Fossil Fuels vs Clean Energy
03:07 War and the Polycrisis
04:23 Resistance Goes Local
05:51 Days of Action Matter
06:36 Collective Identity Backlash
09:36 Repression and Rising Violence
10:22 Solidarity Across Movements
13:41 Systemic Change Not Incrementalism
15:08 Youth Climate Justice Shift
15:44 Big Greens and Political Compromise
17:25 Campus Crackdown Fallout
17:49 Columbia Encampments Then Now
19:11 Solidarity Betrayal And Fear
20:06 Teaching Protest Sanitized History
22:18 Democracy Threats And Voting Barriers
24:25 Federal Raids Mutual Aid Response
26:32 Labor Strikes And Comfort Bubble
29:01 Revolution From Above Or Transformation
32:20 Outrage As Fuel For Action
34:58 Apocalyptic Optimism And Closing
Apocalyptic Optimist Returns
[00:00:00] Maryam Pasha: Dana, last time we were chatting with you, you are our favorite apocalyptic optimist. And
[00:00:04] Dana R. Fisher: aren’t I the only apocalyptic optimist?
[00:00:06] Maryam Pasha: I, you know, I feel like you’ve built a bit of a movement around it, but you were like the OG and you’re our fave. And I still cannot say it without, it’s like a tongue twister for me.
[00:00:14] Dana R. Fisher: Yep, yep.
[00:00:14] Maryam Pasha: [00:00:15] Um, so much of what you do into sex with do democracy, citizens movements. I wanna talk about that today. Um,
[00:00:24] Dana R. Fisher: beautiful.
[00:00:25] Maryam Pasha: I know it’s something you’ve been working on.
Democracy Crisis Update
[00:00:27] Maryam Pasha: You’re based in the US if there was ever a place that’s having a democratic crisis
[00:00:32] Dana R. Fisher: Yes.
[00:00:33] Maryam Pasha: Um, in front of our eyes in real time. Um, I wonder if, since we last talked, will you just tell us like how your work has evolved in relation to how the world has evolved?
[00:00:44] Dana R. Fisher: [00:00:45] Oh yeah. I mean, so it’s so funny because when, when Saving Ourselves came out Yeah. Which is where I. I started talking about being an apocalyptic optimist, which led to, to my Ted Talk on it. Um, I, I did all these conversations with people where they said, well, what’s gonna happen with the 2024 election?[00:01:00]
[00:01:00] Dana R. Fisher: And in fact, we did our conversation Yes. The week before the 2020. I
[00:01:03] Maryam Pasha: remember.
[00:01:04] Dana R. Fisher: And at the time I said, well, in some ways the Trump, if, if we get another Trump administration. Uh, we’re gonna get through the, we’re gonna get to the apocalypse a lot faster.
[00:01:14] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:01:14] Dana R. Fisher: [00:01:15] And you know, and I, and I would always say that, you know, it’s gonna be really, it’s gonna be really tough.
[00:01:18] Dana R. Fisher: It’s gonna be painful, but it actually will mo mobilize the masses and motivate people to start to work together in solidarity. And that’s, that’s the good side. The silver lining is, that’s exactly what we’re seeing in the United States. [00:01:30] And I’ve been, I’ve been doing a lot of work around that, but at the same time, it also is just like the.
Fossil Fuels vs Clean Energy
[00:01:36] Dana R. Fisher: Um, acceleration of the poly crisis, the acceleration of the climate crisis, thankfully driven by my country. Not only are we can have, we canceled all [00:01:45] of the incremental policies that we’ve implemented around climate. Not only are we canceling all efforts at a clean energy transition, I mean, the administration is doing as much as it as it can.
[00:01:54] Dana R. Fisher: And of course, bill McKibbon was here today talking, or not today, but this week, talking about clean [00:02:00] energy. And it’s true that clean energy is fighting back, right? Yeah. Because it’s so cheap, the
[00:02:02] Maryam Pasha: economics.
[00:02:03] Yeah.
[00:02:03] Dana R. Fisher: And I gotta say, as somebody who has only, um, EVs right now, I’m just so you know.
[00:02:10] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Yay.
[00:02:11] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:02:11] Dana R. Fisher: But, um, but so the
[00:02:12] Maryam Pasha: thing other states weren’t happening, but like the, [00:02:15] the narrative is. Oh, it’s got all gone.
[00:02:18] Dana R. Fisher: Oh. I mean, it’s all gone. I mean, and like Donald Trump’s administration is paying billions of dollars to cancel wind energy. Yeah. And these are programs that were actually at the building [00:02:30] stage. I mean, it’s, it’s remarkable.
[00:02:32] Dana R. Fisher: And it’s, it’s, it’s cheaper, it’s safer, it’s cleaner. I mean, you know, it’s all,
[00:02:37] Maryam Pasha: it is energy sovereignty. So you actually, from a, if you are like a, I don’t know.
[00:02:42] Dana R. Fisher: The problem though is that the United States has an [00:02:45] energy sovereignty, okay? And our energy sovereignty is fossil fuel based. Okay? And the people who paid to get Donald Trump into office are those sovereigns, right?
[00:02:52] Dana R. Fisher: And so they want to maintain the fossil fuel, um, grip on power in our country. [00:03:00] And, and they’re doing it.
[00:03:01] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Yeah,
[00:03:01] Dana R. Fisher: yeah. So, so, so the thing is that we’re seeing that happen. We also are seeing this.
War and the Polycrisis
[00:03:07] Dana R. Fisher: This outrageous we have now, we, we have fought many wars, actually, since we last spoke.
[00:03:12] Maryam Pasha: Yes.
[00:03:12] Dana R. Fisher: Um, I mean, and now we see
[00:03:14] Maryam Pasha: Who could imagine so [00:03:15] many.
[00:03:15] Dana R. Fisher: I know. I mean, that one I didn’t like if you would asked me to predict the future, I would’ve, I would’ve predicted that he would do everything he could to get rid of the inflation reduction act, to get rid of clean energy transitions. The United States. I didn’t think he’d be as successful as he is. And that’s because our Congress has really rolled over.
[00:03:29] Maryam Pasha: Agreed. [00:03:30] Agreed. They’re completely abdicated on
[00:03:31] Dana R. Fisher: power. Oh my. I mean,
[00:03:31] Maryam Pasha: and all, all, um, independents.
[00:03:34] Dana R. Fisher: Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah. So, so I did not expect that. Um, but I also did not expect us to go to war. I mean, and now we’re having this crazy fossil fuel war and just the fossil fuel. I mean, the [00:03:45] carbon footprint of war, as you know, is just horrible.
[00:03:48] Dana R. Fisher: So not only are we walking back on clean energy transitions, we’re also just
[00:03:53] Maryam Pasha: burning simples,
[00:03:53] Dana R. Fisher: am I say, I’m allowed to say blowing shit up. Yes. Which is like blowing shit up. So we basically are just, we’re doing so much to [00:04:00] waste money, waste carbon, and to make everything worse. So, so that’s where we are now, which, so that’s the apocalyptic part, right?
[00:04:07] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. But there’s the optimism, which of course that’s my brand is like it’s bad and we have to real be realistic about it. But the good silver lining about [00:04:15] that is that we see people rising up and pushing back, and it’s a lot easier to do that when there’s a common enemy and there is quite the enemy right now.
[00:04:23] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
Resistance Goes Local
[00:04:23] Dana R. Fisher: So what we’re seeing in the United States is this resistance that’s rising up. Yeah. So [00:04:30] my book before Saving Ourselves was called American Resistance. Yes. Which was based on research from the people protesting during the first Trump administration.
[00:04:36] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:04:37] Dana R. Fisher: During the first Trump administration, we saw these large scale protests that happened in urban areas, and I tracked all the people who protested there [00:04:45] and followed them through the electoral process to see how they brought on what we call the blue wave, which was bringing into power the Democrats again.
[00:04:52] Dana R. Fisher: Right. Who theoretically were gonna, you know, save us from ourselves, which, you know. It works out. I mean, there’s a lot of critiques we can give for that. This [00:05:00] time around, we’re seeing something really different because what we’re seeing, oh, sorry.
[00:05:03] Maryam Pasha: Just ’cause of
[00:05:04] Dana R. Fisher: Oh yeah, I’m sorry. Thank you. This time around we’re seeing something really different in that we’re seeing a much more distributed movement where the movement is really embedded in communities, which is so much better and so much [00:05:15] stronger.
[00:05:15] Dana R. Fisher: Okay. It’s a lot harder to count, right, because you don’t see like millions of people in one place. But we’re seeing thousands of events taking place simultaneously, and we’ve had. Multiple days of action where you’ve seen millions of people in the streets. We also now have [00:05:30] a general strike called for May 1st, first general strike in the United States.
[00:05:34] Dana R. Fisher: That’s been called by a big coalition of folks since like the 1970s. Yeah. And I’m actually working with the organizers on that. Wow. To try to understand who’s [00:05:45] participating, but there are thousands of events that are being scheduled and I think that’s gonna continue growing.
Days of Action Matter
[00:05:51] Maryam Pasha: Do you feel, ’cause there’s this, there’s this like.
[00:05:53] Maryam Pasha: Con, not contradict, but this is tension, right? Where you’ve got the work happening in the community at the grassroots, which you know, [00:06:00] you have written about and spoken about is so powerful because it’s so connected, right? It’s so rooted. Um, but then there’s like a perception problem because then if you can’t see it, do people feel isolated?
[00:06:11] Maryam Pasha: Do people feel alone? Is that why having like a national day of action [00:06:15] is so important?
[00:06:16] Dana R. Fisher: Well, I think the problem is that, I mean, one. We see people getting involved, but they’re not very well connected yet. Okay. That’s still happening and it’s starting at the local level, which is so much better than it being top down because in the communities is where [00:06:30] the social change has to happen.
[00:06:31] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:06:31] Dana R. Fisher: So that’s really good. But we’re still, we still need more.
[00:06:36] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
Collective Identity Backlash
[00:06:36] Dana R. Fisher: And so these days of action, I mean, it’s funny ’cause I. I just got like all this hate mail because I said in the New York Times that these days of action [00:06:45] are these opportunities to develop what we call collective identity. Yeah. Which is like a technical term in the social movements literature, but collective identity is getting going somewhere to see that you’re not alone.
[00:06:54] Dana R. Fisher: Yes. Which is such an important Yes. Emotional component. Absolutely. Of activism and [00:07:00] protests and anything. Right. And all these people were like, how dare you say that? We’re just out there to feel like we’re not alone. I was like, but.
[00:07:09] Maryam Pasha: But that’s so important.
[00:07:09] Dana R. Fisher: I know. I was like, but not being alone is part of like social change.
[00:07:14] Dana R. Fisher: We need to not be [00:07:15] alone. We need to work together. And going out and being somewhere where you see other people and then you build more because yeah. You realize you’re not alone is so key. So that I, I, it was interesting ’cause I was like, I don’t see anything bizarre, critical. It’s bizarre. Critique. Well, it’s funny this, this blogger I’d never heard of who has [00:07:30] thousands and thousands of followers.
[00:07:31] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah, he kind of doxed me. I mean, he, he, he minorly dox me by giving every my, my email and being like, Dana Fisher needs to spend some time at a protest. And I’m like, oh, really?
[00:07:41] Maryam Pasha: Okay. Fisher spent a lot of freaking time at the protest.
[00:07:42] Dana R. Fisher: Dana Fisher’s been in protest for [00:07:45] 26 years plus. I, I mean, and I was like, I’ve been to all of these.
[00:07:48] Dana R. Fisher: I actually have the data. And, and the thing is that building collective identity is like a key part of being able to push back to power. Yes. Particularly because in the United States it is very clear. [00:08:00] That the electoral process is not gonna fix the problem alone. Yes. We need more than that. And that’s what has to happen at the local level.
[00:08:06] Maryam Pasha: I sometimes feel when people critique this way, it’s because they are so, um, sheltered.
[00:08:14] Dana R. Fisher: Mm-hmm. [00:08:15]
[00:08:15] Maryam Pasha: So like I come from Iran, um.
[00:08:18] Dana R. Fisher: I’m sorry.
[00:08:19] Maryam Pasha: And that’s a whole other conversation we can have. Right,
[00:08:22] Dana R. Fisher: right.
[00:08:22] Maryam Pasha: But I even before, I hope
[00:08:23] Dana R. Fisher: you don’t have a lot of family there.
[00:08:24] Maryam Pasha: No, none. None.
[00:08:25] Dana R. Fisher: My postdoc is actually, his whole family is in Iran.
[00:08:27] Dana R. Fisher: Its been Oh, that
[00:08:28] Maryam Pasha: must be, it’s, it’s, um, [00:08:30] it’s a parallel life. You lead where you like do your life every day and then this is what Palestinians have been talking about. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Live your life every day and then half your life, you’re just, uh. Yeah. In a, in a constant state of, a state of like freeze or flight or fight or whatever it might be.
[00:08:44] Maryam Pasha: Right, [00:08:45] right,
[00:08:45] Dana R. Fisher: right, right.
[00:08:45] Maryam Pasha: But, but even before this war, like, let’s just go back. I think the thing is, is that people do not value how imp how critical it is to actually be able to come out and connect with another human being uhhuh, unless it feels like, unless you have come from a context [00:09:00] where that is punishable by death.
[00:09:02] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:09:03] Maryam Pasha: You know, it, it’s like crazy to me that people can’t see how important that is.
[00:09:07] Dana R. Fisher: I agree with you. I mean, I think also that there is so, so I ended up writing this piece based on the day that we collected that. [00:09:15] That guy, yeah. Didn’t actually know that I was doing that. Didn’t, didn’t recognize, and this was one the most recent from most recent, no Kings Day, so it was no Kings three.
[00:09:23] Dana R. Fisher: And I wrote about the strength of building social ties at the local level. So the strength of local [00:09:30] ties, because that is part of building solidarity. Yes. And solidarity is absolutely necessary. Particularly because,
[00:09:36] Maryam Pasha: yeah, what
Repression and Rising Violence
[00:09:36] Dana R. Fisher: we’re seeing now in the United States is we’re seeing. Repression. Yeah. We’re seeing a very big threat of escalation.
[00:09:43] Dana R. Fisher: We’re seeing martyrdom for the [00:09:45] first time in the
[00:09:46] Maryam Pasha: streets. Yes. Because I said that people don’t get killed on the streets. They obviously do get killed on the streets in America too, like
[00:09:51] Dana R. Fisher: it has been happening. Oh no, but this is, this is, this is a new turn. I mean, this is people, I mean, people have been killed in the streets, but I think that we’re gonna see a lot more of [00:10:00] that, which is horrible.
[00:10:01] Dana R. Fisher: Yes. And again, this is one of those times where I’m like, I’m not saying it’s good. I’m observing it. And I also have been in my research documenting both what people in the streets are willing to do, what they think is needed. Yes. And sentiment [00:10:15] that political violence is going to be necessary to protect.
[00:10:17] Dana R. Fisher: American democracy has gone up substantially since Trump took office.
Solidarity Across Movements
[00:10:22] Maryam Pasha: You mentioned solidarity.
[00:10:24] Dana R. Fisher: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:24] Maryam Pasha: Solidarity is something I think we don’t talk enough about in the climate movement.
[00:10:27] Dana R. Fisher: Absolutely.
[00:10:28] Maryam Pasha: Um. [00:10:30] One of my favorite stories, like as a young activist when I was. You know, much younger, the thing that, like, you know, there are stories that like, just stay with you.
[00:10:37] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm. Was in the UK in, in the eighties. I mean, I was, before I was around, so I, I like, can’t look at it exactly, but there was the, [00:10:45] obviously the minor strikes, eighties and early nineties I was right. Um, and there was a group. Of queer activists from London.
[00:10:51] Dana R. Fisher: Mm-hmm.
[00:10:52] Maryam Pasha: Who like got on a bus and went to rural Wales.
[00:10:55] Maryam Pasha: Am I making this up somewhere?
[00:10:56] Dana R. Fisher: Okay.
[00:10:57] Maryam Pasha: And to stand in solidarity with the [00:11:00] miners. With the miners and gimme
[00:11:01] Dana R. Fisher: a little bit of chills there. Just, you know,
[00:11:02] Maryam Pasha: and I just thought to myself like, that for me was just so formative,
[00:11:08] Dana R. Fisher: uhhuh,
[00:11:08] Maryam Pasha: and I feel we’ve lost it.
[00:11:10] Dana R. Fisher: Oh, I absolutely, I mean, that’s one of the things that we’re still not seeing enough of in the streets.[00:11:15]
[00:11:15] Dana R. Fisher: I mean, and one of the things that I do is I document like the demographics of protests. Yes. I mean, and I did this around the climate movement. Yeah. And now we’re seeing that the resistance in the United States generally at the national level is overwhelmingly highly [00:11:30] educated, predominantly white, um, and left-leaning, which I mean left-leaning.
[00:11:34] Dana R. Fisher: Of course that makes sense. Although you need more people from the center to get involved. Trump’s. Trump’s doing a great job of helping that. Exactly. Because his, his numbers are collapsing. Yeah, because I mean, economics
[00:11:44] Maryam Pasha: is, [00:11:45] economics is a great way to put pressure on the center, like make people’s lives harder and they’ll
[00:11:48] Dana R. Fisher: come out and attacking the Pope too.
[00:11:50] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. That’s another fantastic,
[00:11:51] Dana R. Fisher: you know, ’cause like one in five people in the United States are, are Catholic, so, you know, maybe that’s not a good thing.
[00:11:55] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:11:56] Dana R. Fisher: Interesting. So, I mean, so in terms of thinking about building solidarity, the [00:12:00] way that I think about it, and a lot of the research thinks about it, is solidarity across identity orientation and social class.
[00:12:05] Dana R. Fisher: Yes. The strongest and most effective movements do that.
[00:12:08] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:12:08] Dana R. Fisher: The climate movement was starting to do that and really has gotten like sucked into this wave of resistance in the United States, which [00:12:15] makes sense.
[00:12:15] Maryam Pasha: Yes, yes,
[00:12:15] Dana R. Fisher: yes. Because when democracy is crumbling, it’s really hard to only focus on climate.
[00:12:21] Dana R. Fisher: But a lot of groups are recognizing that it’s part of the, the poly crisis because without. Economic justice without racial justice. Yeah. Without [00:12:30] solidarity, how can you protect the climate?
[00:12:32] Maryam Pasha: Right. Let’s talk about this, Dana. Okay. Like, let’s talk about this. This is my biggest bug bear.
[00:12:37] Dana R. Fisher: Okay.
[00:12:37] Maryam Pasha: And I think you’ll have the smartest things to say about this, so I’m excited.
[00:12:40] Maryam Pasha: I hope so.
[00:12:40] Dana R. Fisher: Okay.
[00:12:41] Maryam Pasha: I just am so. [00:12:45] I never stop being shocked when I have conversations with people in the climate movement. You say, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. I believe in like equity and indigenous rights and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and justice. But like, we don’t have time for that. Um, like [00:13:00] and or say things to me like.
[00:13:02] Maryam Pasha: Where they feel like they’re a bit more sophisticated of like, look, we’ve gotta learn to work with, with like reform in the uk. We’ve gotta learn to work with Trump. Like, like these people are in power and we have to, you know, if it means like we have to [00:13:15] sacrifice things like justice and equity, we gotta do it to get those wind vines built, obviously that like, it hurts my brain.
[00:13:24] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:25] Maryam Pasha: Um. But I haven’t spent 25. It reach your heart too, right? Yes, but I haven’t spent like 20 [00:13:30] fives in my 25 years of my life or more being, you know, studying this stuff deeply. Why is that? Is that, is am I, am I right to feel like in my bones that that is not the right path?
Systemic Change Not Incrementalism
[00:13:41] Dana R. Fisher: Well, I completely agree with you, but I mean, I believe in systemic change, right?
[00:13:44] Dana R. Fisher: So, okay, so talk [00:13:45] us
[00:13:45] Maryam Pasha: about that.
[00:13:45] Dana R. Fisher: So systemic change means that we need to recognize that a true. True addressing of the climate crisis is breaking up this system that has captured us. Yeah. Which is fossil fuel driven. Yes. And is [00:14:00] incredibly unequal. Right. And the problem is we’ve seen a growth in inequality, a growth in political polarization, um, and fossil fuel interests have like a stranglehold in decision making.
[00:14:10] Dana R. Fisher: Yes. Intentionally. Yes. Right. I mean, they bought it so that they can control it [00:14:15] and you know, and that’s why we’re trying, we’re opening up coal mines again in the United States. ’cause, you know, ’cause that’s a winning move. Um,
[00:14:22] Maryam Pasha: yeah. Like paying for it. Yeah.
[00:14:24] Dana R. Fisher: Literally paying more economics don’t
[00:14:25] Maryam Pasha: work. I
[00:14:25] Dana R. Fisher: mean, it doesn’t work at all.
[00:14:27] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. So there’s, I mean, it, it, it doesn’t make a lot of sense, but [00:14:30] that’s where we are. So there are people in the world who believe that we can maintain the same status quo, the same social hierarchies and address. Climate change. Yes. And they are, I like to think of them as what I call incrementalists.
[00:14:44] Dana R. Fisher: [00:14:45] Yes. Okay. They believe in this incremental change where we don’t change the system, we don’t become more equal. We just become cleaner.
[00:14:52] Maryam Pasha: Yes.
[00:14:52] Dana R. Fisher: You know, and that’s where you see a lot of this idea of technological innovation that can solve the problem without doing any of the hard work
[00:14:59] Maryam Pasha: and, and was, [00:15:00] has not.
[00:15:00] Maryam Pasha: Not been where the climate movement was for a very long time. It feels And was changing.
[00:15:05] Dana R. Fisher: Yes. Changing. Yes. So the climate, oh, so the climate movement was there.
[00:15:08] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
Youth Climate Justice Shift
[00:15:08] Dana R. Fisher: The climate movement started to change, I believe when we saw, um, a lot with the, the school strikes with [00:15:15] Fridays for future. I mean, we can thank Greta, but there were young people all over the world who were involved in this.
[00:15:19] Dana R. Fisher: So I don’t wanna say, and I know Greta would herself not say that it’s very clearly
[00:15:23] Maryam Pasha: was like the idea of like. The youth voice globally coming in, I think.
[00:15:26] Dana R. Fisher: Right. And they, I mean, and some of the work that I did was actually looking at kind of the main [00:15:30] issues there. And while we see that for other movements, there’s a diversity of perspectives, there was a lot of consistency within the climate movement during that period of time that justice and equity were main themes along with climate change.
[00:15:43] Maryam Pasha: Yeah,
[00:15:43] Dana R. Fisher: within the movement.
Big Greens and Political Compromise
[00:15:44] Dana R. Fisher: Now I also observed how a lot of what we call in the United States, the big greens, which are these professionalized Yes. Groups really, um. How do I say this? They, um, I don’t wanna say they exploited the young people, but they, in a lot of that’s
[00:16:00] Maryam Pasha: what is a means to an end maybe.
[00:16:01] Dana R. Fisher: Well, it, no, it was more like they, they, they wanted to take advantage of the popularity. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the notoriety of young people and youth activists without
[00:16:10] Maryam Pasha: sliding up
[00:16:10] Dana R. Fisher: to it, without actually, without actually embracing the type of change. Right. I mean, [00:16:15] unfortunately, I think we really saw that during the Biden administration.
[00:16:18] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. Where the Biden administration came into power. They actually were able to take advantage of young people, many of whom were climate activists. Yes. Who got involved in helping to campaign for Biden. Yeah. And Biden [00:16:30] said that he was gonna do a whole bunch of things. And what he ended up doing in the end, and he didn’t have the political capacity to do everything he said he was gonna do.
[00:16:36] Dana R. Fisher: Sure. He ended up with a very weak policy, which did involve more climate policy than we ever had in the United States before. It also gave away a [00:16:45] whole bunch of resources and money to fossil fuel interests.
[00:16:48] Maryam Pasha: Yes, yes.
[00:16:48] Dana R. Fisher: That’s, that was a
[00:16:49] Maryam Pasha: compromise,
[00:16:49] Dana R. Fisher: right? Yeah. Super compromise. Super incremental.
[00:16:52] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:16:52] Dana R. Fisher: And the young people got kind of screwed in the whole process.
[00:16:54] Dana R. Fisher: I
[00:16:55] Maryam Pasha: mean, yeah, because I think there was like definite, I could, I remember, ’cause I, I’ve not been involved in this movement [00:17:00] for very long, but I came in around that time and I remember thinking like, wow, there’s a really big. Burden that we’re putting on these young people.
[00:17:07] Dana R. Fisher: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Um, they were really fetishized, right?
[00:17:09] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. They were really like, oh look, we’re holding up this, you know,
[00:17:12] Maryam Pasha: they did the
[00:17:13] Dana R. Fisher: emotional multiracial [00:17:15] justice and climate activists and you should buy our product, and obviously then we’re legit with our perspective without actually embracing it and bringing it into,
[00:17:24] Maryam Pasha: yeah,
[00:17:24] Dana R. Fisher: the message of the movement.
Campus Crackdown Fallout
[00:17:25] Dana R. Fisher: And it ended up, I think it really backfired for them because a lot of young people got [00:17:30] very involved and engaged and motivated by. Yeah. Uh, protesting the war in Gaza.
[00:17:34] Maryam Pasha: Yes.
[00:17:35] Dana R. Fisher: And they were really, um, uh, repressed. Yeah. I mean if we saw what happened on college campuses across the United States, the [00:17:45] repression was out.
[00:17:45] Dana R. Fisher: Outrageous. I didn’t the uk
[00:17:46] Maryam Pasha: I didn’t think. Uk.
[00:17:47] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. And in the uk I mean, we saw it in a lot of places. I mean, yeah.
Columbia Encampments Then Now
[00:17:49] Dana R. Fisher: So it’s, it’s funny ’cause I used to be on the faculty at Columbia. Okay. And every year we had encampments on, on campus. Yes. I and I, yeah. And I taught activism right on campus. So I always had these activists in my class and I would always walk, you walk across the green to go to teach and there’s always, always, when my student pops out of a 10.
[00:18:05] Dana R. Fisher: Hey, professor Fisher, I’ll see you in class. And I’m like, don’t forget to do the reading. I’m sure you’ve got a battery light so you can do your reading at night. Right? And they’re like, see you there. Right? So what always happened?
[00:18:14] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, it [00:18:15] was part of college life.
[00:18:15] Dana R. Fisher: Part of the college culture, right? I mean, we had, we in campus when I was in college mean I didn’t go to Columbia, but so the fact that this one time they were so repressive, they brought in police.
[00:18:27] Dana R. Fisher: And I, I just was on this event in New York City [00:18:30] last week where one of the leaders of the movement on Columbia’s campus was talking about the ways that he has felt like he has been, um, surveilled
[00:18:38] Maryam Pasha: Yes.
[00:18:39] Dana R. Fisher: And scrutinized. And it’s amazing that he’s been able to graduate so, so many young people got turned off.
[00:18:44] Dana R. Fisher: So between the [00:18:45] incremental policy making, the ways that youth activists were treated. We did not see young people turn out for Harris during the most recent election, and that’s one of the reason that bi, that Biden, not Biden, oops. That’s one of the reasons why Trump won.
[00:18:57] Maryam Pasha: Yes.
[00:18:57] Dana R. Fisher: And why Harris lost. And [00:19:00] we are no longer seeing young people in the streets protesting in the United States.
[00:19:03] Dana R. Fisher: No, we’re not seeing them protesting on college campuses.
[00:19:06] Maryam Pasha: No,
[00:19:06] Dana R. Fisher: because they’re terrified and they feel completely disconnected.
Solidarity Betrayal And Fear
[00:19:11] Maryam Pasha: It comes back to solidarity in my mind. Oh yeah.
[00:19:13] Dana R. Fisher: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:13] Maryam Pasha: Like you, [00:19:15] you took, like you used these people. For what you wanted. You did not stand up for them. What eye on earth would you think that they would come back out for you?
[00:19:25] Dana R. Fisher: And if you’re going to let police. Am I allowed to say beat the shit out of you? Yes. Okay. If [00:19:30] you’re, if you’re gonna let, if
[00:19:30] Maryam Pasha: it’s happened, you can say, okay,
[00:19:32] Dana R. Fisher: if you’re gonna let the police come in, clear young people Yes. And beat the shit out of them, which quite frankly happened on a number of college campuses.
[00:19:39] Dana R. Fisher: Yes. If you’re gonna let that happen and not stand up and push back to that. Yeah. Then what do you, [00:19:45] what makes you think that? ’cause that’s what about, yeah. Solidarity is about standing up for and protecting young people. I mean, and the overlap, just so you know, like the overlap between the young people who were caring about climate.
[00:19:56] Dana R. Fisher: And were caring about the war in Gaza was, was very, very [00:20:00] high. So these were, these were climate activists, many of them.
[00:20:03] Maryam Pasha: I mean, yeah. I, I always find it.
Teaching Protest Sanitized History
[00:20:06] Maryam Pasha: I, I felt, what I found bizarre, I always find bizarre is this idea that we teach these things. Like when I, ’cause I went to high school in New York. Mm-hmm.
[00:20:14] Maryam Pasha: And, you [00:20:15] know, so I have like a deep Oh, really? Okay. So you
[00:20:16] Dana R. Fisher: were in high school in New
[00:20:17] Maryam Pasha: York. Yeah. And then you were in London and, no, and then I was in Canada for a while, so I have this like deep re like, like embedding in like North American politics and that. Okay. You know, I remember we learned about Kent State
[00:20:27] Dana R. Fisher: Uhhuh.
[00:20:28] Maryam Pasha: You know, we, we, and, and [00:20:30] even before that, you learn about the suffrages, you learn about Martin Luther thinking Jr. You learn about all of these people. And then in our higher education institutions particularly, and they were like, what fucking surprised that the very young people were teaching [00:20:45] about like civil disobedience and resistance.
[00:20:47] Maryam Pasha: I mean, you were teaching activism, employ it.
[00:20:51] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:51] Maryam Pasha: It, it, it just, I could not understand why people were so shocked it was happening. It’s like, you are tea, you are teaching it. Like,
[00:20:58] Dana R. Fisher: well, I mean, I, [00:21:00] I completely agree, but I also am very worried about making, making, I mean, as somebody who teaches activism, I worry about.
[00:21:09] Dana R. Fisher: Saying, oh, it’s because they’re being taught that, no,
[00:21:10] Maryam Pasha: it’s not because they’re being taught it, but we hold it up as like a idea. Like we,
[00:21:14] Dana R. Fisher: we talk
[00:21:14] Maryam Pasha: [00:21:15] about it, we respect it, we think it’s a good thing, but only if it happened historically.
[00:21:18] Dana R. Fisher: But, but what I think is really interesting is when we teach history and there’s some really wonderful work that’s been done about this, we really have whitewashed Yes.
[00:21:26] Dana R. Fisher: And, and, and greenwashed these movements [00:21:30] and the grittiness of what civil disobedience involves. I mean, one of the things that I, I ended up talking a lot with, and I talked a lot with the folks at Extinction Rebellion about this. Um, in the past few years because they were like, but we got arrested. And it’s like, yeah.
[00:21:43] Dana R. Fisher: Do you know what happened during the Civil [00:21:45] Rights Movement? During the Civil Rights movement? So many leaders, they were arrested. I mean, and Martin Luther King Jr. Was like, we wanna fill the jails. I mean, that was one of the tactics employed by the movement. Completely. Completely. I mean, but also a lot of people were beaten [00:22:00] up and there were people who were murdered.
[00:22:01] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. And that is the grit, grittiness of social change. And I am not saying that activists should go. You know, get beaten up, be imprisoned, be murdered. But that is likely the [00:22:15] price that we are going to have to pay for the kinds of systemic changes we need.
Democracy Threats And Voting Barriers
[00:22:18] Maryam Pasha: What do you see as the biggest threats to democracy right now in America?
[00:22:23] Maryam Pasha: Like what, what not, I mean, obviously it’s Trump, but like what do you, what are the like things you are seeing happening that you think are gonna have the [00:22:30] biggest impacts? The, the biggest. Effect on democracy?
[00:22:34] Dana R. Fisher: Well, I mean, I think there’s a complacency that is a real problem because right now we have a number of bills that have been pushed through and proposed by Republicans in Congress that will take away rights [00:22:45] in ways that, uh, many people are not even understanding.
[00:22:47] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. Um, for example, there’s this save act, which if it’s implemented, I dunno if you want me to talk about this ’cause it may. Because it’s like timely. It may be dead hope, hopefully be dead, but, um, but
[00:22:59] Maryam Pasha: I mean, you [00:23:00] talk about it. Let’s see.
[00:23:00] Dana R. Fisher: Okay. I mean, but so there’s, so there’s this act which actually will require people to have documentation if people, um, women may very well lose the ability to, to, um, vote if they don’t have proper documentation, if they changed their names when they got married.
[00:23:13] Dana R. Fisher: Yes, yes, I’ve heard
[00:23:14] Maryam Pasha: about
[00:23:14] Dana R. Fisher: this. Right, [00:23:15] right. I mean, but it’s also just, there’s, there’s, there’s gonna be so much more requirements for documentation to be allowed to participate in our democratic system, which is the exact opposite of. Supporting participation, right? Yes. Because if you wanna support participation, you make it easier for people to participate.[00:23:30]
[00:23:30] Dana R. Fisher: Here, the administration and the Republicans are pushing to, to limit participation because that way they don’t have to say that they’re rep, they, they can say, oh, well we, we, we had fair, free and fair elections. Yes. Most people just weren’t eligible to vote because they didn’t [00:23:45] do it right, because we changed the rules.
[00:23:46] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. So that’s a horrible threat and I, and I fear that a lot of people are not going to recognize this. Until it has already passed. Yes. I mean, and this is the same thing as, as I talk about, and I, I find with the climate movement is that when we [00:24:00] really see the kind of mobilization and pushback too. The climate crisis is after people experience the the climate crisis firsthand.
[00:24:10] Dana R. Fisher: Yes. You wrote this. Yeah. Right. I mean, once you experience a climate shock, there’s so much growing research that talks about [00:24:15] how people push back and mobilize and build solidarity, and it may very well be that it’s not until we lose a whole bunch of our democratic capacity. That people start to do that.
Federal Raids Mutual Aid Response
[00:24:25] Dana R. Fisher: It’s not until, I mean, if one beautiful thing that we’ve seen [00:24:30] recently is the way that the folks in Minnesota Yes. And in Portland and other cities have pushed back when they’ve been occupied by the administration, by federal agents. Yes. Which, like the fact that we have these crazy unnamed mass agents running around in our country disappearing [00:24:45] people.
[00:24:45] Maryam Pasha: It’s a paramilitary, it’s like a parallel military. I mean like, like
[00:24:48] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. I mean, its. If, if you had, if we had talked about this when we were at Ted Countdown in 2024 and you say, guess what’s gonna happen? I’ll tell you what’s gonna happen in your country. I would’ve been like, no way do you, I’m gonna call [00:25:00] BS on that.
[00:25:00] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. There’s no way that’s gonna happen in my country, even if Trump’s elected. But no, I mean, that is the world we’re living in, but the communities and the ways that the communities have built these mutual aid networks Yes. To protect the people in their communities. I mean, I [00:25:15] have one of my postdocs who, who lives in Minneapolis, actually helped to organize.
[00:25:19] Dana R. Fisher: These programs where they were escorting kids to school? Yes. If their parents were not, you know, were not citizens so that the kids could go to school because the parents couldn’t leave their houses. ’cause they were worried about getting just grabbed off the [00:25:30] street, which was happening in our country. I know.
[00:25:32] Dana R. Fisher: I mean, so, so. On the one hand, the threat is that we’re gonna continue to see that. Yeah. I mean, and clearly the Trump administration has all these plans to build holding centers across the country. I mean, [00:25:45] in these crazy factories and like, like Amazon warehouses, right? Where you just hold people, I mean, which some people are calling concentration camps and you know,
[00:25:54] Maryam Pasha: yeah.
[00:25:54] Dana R. Fisher: Maybe that’s the right term for them.
[00:25:57] Maryam Pasha: But if you wanna, if you wanna convey the seriousness [00:26:00] of, of where that can go. Yes.
[00:26:01] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. I mean, for sure. And the thing is that. Given how many of these bases they’re trying to build, it is very clear that the expectation is that black and brown and [00:26:15] non-American people in the United States are right to be feeling very, very threatened right now.
[00:26:20] Dana R. Fisher: And it’s the people who are not, who have more, um, more comfortable status in the United States who need to be pushing back. And my research is showing they are. Okay. The [00:26:30] thing though is that we need to see more solidarity.
Labor Strikes And Comfort Bubble
[00:26:32] Dana R. Fisher: There needs to be more work with workers, which is one of the reasons I’m so excited to be studying this strike.
[00:26:36] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. Because that’s where we might see connections with labor.
[00:26:39] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Yeah. I think America has a, people have a [00:26:45] hesitation of working with labor, I feel like in America. Like there’s this, yeah.
[00:26:48] Dana R. Fisher: Well, I mean I, well here is kind of weird, but I’ve tried to talk to people about it and a lot of people. I was, I was so excited because I just signed up to be able to do this work with the people organizing.
[00:26:58] Dana R. Fisher: Yes, Mayday strong and. [00:27:00] I was like, oh, I’m so excited. I’m gonna get to work with them to track all the people to participate so we can understand why they’re participating. Yeah. To what degree climate is motivating them. Yeah. You know, what their demographics are, what they’re actually doing in their communities, how they’re connected.
[00:27:13] Dana R. Fisher: I mean, which is so great to have that kind of [00:27:15] information. Yes. I mean, to the degree that they’re willing to participate in civil disobedience, which is another interesting question that we’re starting to ask, and a lot of people here are like, wait, what? There’s gonna be a strike. Why would people strike?
[00:27:27] Dana R. Fisher: So, I mean, I think that that. Speaks to, you know, the [00:27:30] degree to which, yeah. Some people who come from the have class Yeah. If you can call ’em that.
[00:27:34] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:27:34] Dana R. Fisher: Are just not paying attention to what’s going on.
[00:27:37] Maryam Pasha: Well, so I, one of the more unusual parts of my work is I get to work with some philanthropists, Uhhuh, and one of the people I get to work with has said something to me that I think [00:27:45] really has, I think we know, but I think it really is insightful being from the have class themselves is that is not until you feel discomfort.
[00:27:57] Maryam Pasha: That you, you have that, [00:28:00] um, moment of like, wait, hang on, what’s going on? And yet, and people spend their lives trying to create com like, like absolute comfort, so they never have to touch the discomfort.
[00:28:10] Dana R. Fisher: Right. Right, right. I
[00:28:10] Maryam Pasha: mean, and, and so if you can isolate yourself in that way,
[00:28:13] Dana R. Fisher: they’re weird and they’re like, they have a
[00:28:14] Maryam Pasha: [00:28:15] Yeah.
[00:28:15] Dana R. Fisher: Beautiful pillow around them.
[00:28:16] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, you are. And I, and I think that’s the, not even if we wanna go to the like, extreme wealth, I think that’s true. Even when you think about, like, I talk about this with my husband a lot actually, where I’m like. You don’t see the system because [00:28:30] you don’t ever hit that wall.
[00:28:32] Dana R. Fisher: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:33] Maryam Pasha: Like I’m constantly hitting that wall like it like lives, like on this side of me, you know? So I feel it.
[00:28:38] Dana R. Fisher: Uhhuh,
[00:28:39] Maryam Pasha: until you feel it, it’s always gonna feel like, like you don’t know that glasses, that I’m looking out a [00:28:45] window until you. Put your hand against it. Right. You can like get people walk into glass all the time because they don’t see it until you walk into that glass.
[00:28:52] Maryam Pasha: Sometimes it’s re you have to really trust people who tell you no, there is glass there.
[00:28:57] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. And, and I think that’s where the whole [00:29:00] experiencing it firsthand. Right. Exactly.
Revolution From Above Or Transformation
[00:29:01] Dana R. Fisher: And, and I don’t, I mean, and I, I wonder how that’s gonna work out because, I mean, one of the things that I’m, that I’ve been thinking a lot about recently is revolution.
[00:29:11] Maryam Pasha: Mm.
[00:29:12] Dana R. Fisher: Um. And I mean, when I say revolution, I don’t mean [00:29:15] like, I don’t mean just like the, the bloody overthrow Yes. Of, you know, with pro, you know, with the proletariat and of the bourgeois. Like not a communist revolution, but there are many different types of revolution. Revolution. But that, that is one type of a revolution.
[00:29:28] Dana R. Fisher: The other type of revolution is, there’s [00:29:30] actually been research that talks about how fascism is also a revolution, a revolution from above. And I think that that’s really what the United States is experiencing right now. Yes. And we are standing on the precipice of falling down this hole that it is gonna take so many lives and so much work [00:29:45] to get out of.
[00:29:45] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:29:46] Dana R. Fisher: So, um, so the question is how do we get to. The, the revolution that I’m most comfortable with is not the revolution from below, which is a revolution where we does that does also involve, you know, uh. Workers [00:30:00] rising up. And that does involve a lot of, you know, a bloodshed. But there’s also the revolution that is like a transformation of society.
[00:30:06] Dana R. Fisher: That kind of systemic change. Yeah. That can internalize these externalities, that can empower people to build a better dis [00:30:15] democracy that also does take the climate crisis seriously and basically rest power away from fossil fuel interests.
[00:30:21] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:30:22] Dana R. Fisher: And that’s, and that’s the revolution I won.
[00:30:24] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:30:24] Dana R. Fisher: And the way I, I’ve been talking to people, I just was.
[00:30:26] Dana R. Fisher: Giving a talk to some students, um, in New Jersey. And I said, but [00:30:30] the deal is we’re gonna get the revolution we deserve. Right. We are either pushed back and that may be the title of my next book, but I’m not sure yet. Oh, I like it. I like it. I don’t know. It’s, it’s interesting ’cause I was talking to an indigenous woman here who gave us amazing talk a couple of days ago and she was like, oh, I feel like that’s kind [00:30:45] of, that seems really privileged to say that.
[00:30:47] Dana R. Fisher: And I was talking to somebody else who’s really privileged and they were like, I think that sounds like you’re shaming me. And so I was like, maybe, maybe it’s. Maybe it’s bad, but maybe, maybe we need, maybe we all need to get a little uncomfortable here and we need to think about our positionality. Yeah.
[00:30:59] Dana R. Fisher: And think [00:31:00] about the power that we have based in our positionality. Yeah. Because everybody has power. Yeah. I mean, even the powerless have power in their powerlessness right now, and it’s all about finding people like you and building that solidarity. Without it though, I don’t know where we’re gonna go and I don’t know how [00:31:15] we’re gonna get past this.
[00:31:16] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I, uh, I agree. I mean, what’s interesting is for me. This really uncomfortable notion. I remember when, when we were working on your talk as well, that we have to feel pain in order. Like
[00:31:29] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah.
[00:31:29] Maryam Pasha: You [00:31:30] know, and I know you don’t, you don’t see it with any glee, like
[00:31:32] Dana R. Fisher: No, I know what I mean. Exactly. It’s not, it’s not something that I’m like happy about.
[00:31:35] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. But I do think that there’s something to that fact, and
[00:31:37] Maryam Pasha: I guess the way that I, when I, I talk to you, the way that I kind of, I think about it now is ’cause the feeling that has been [00:31:45] like at the top of my mind recently is like every time I think it can get worse, it gets worse.
[00:31:49] Dana R. Fisher: Yes.
[00:31:50] Maryam Pasha: You know where you’re like, oh.
[00:31:52] Maryam Pasha: This was not rock bottom. This was just like the stop on the elevator down, you know? Well, I
[00:31:55] Dana R. Fisher: know. It’s like, um, what are those, like the deep diving people who have to stop [00:32:00] and
[00:32:00] Maryam Pasha: let their bodies Yes, yes. Yeah. Adjust and
[00:32:01] Dana R. Fisher: then adjust and then they go
[00:32:02] Maryam Pasha: deeper. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
[00:32:04] Dana R. Fisher: So we keep doing that. I’m not, I don’t know how far
[00:32:05] Maryam Pasha: we’re go.
[00:32:06] Maryam Pasha: It’s like the reverse of the hedonic treadmill in social psychology. I don’t know what the reverse of it would be, but we’re like on a treadmill, down on a treadmill. So we need a name. We should
[00:32:14] Dana R. Fisher: name it. We [00:32:15] need.
[00:32:15] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I’ll leave that to you.
[00:32:16] Dana R. Fisher: Okay. I’m gonna work on,
[00:32:17] Maryam Pasha: that’ll
[00:32:18] Dana R. Fisher: be a little project for me on the ride home.
Outrage As Fuel For Action
[00:32:20] Maryam Pasha: But the thing for me is that when, when I listen to you and I feel that way, I remind myself that even if everyti, if every time it [00:32:30] gets worse, I also think, okay, well it’s just more fuel.
[00:32:34] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah,
[00:32:34] Maryam Pasha: this is more fuel. Like I can’t control it getting worse, but I can control whether that makes me feel helpless, uhhuh, and therefore frozen.
[00:32:42] Maryam Pasha: Or whether it just gives me more fuel to wanna do [00:32:45] something.
[00:32:45] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that we’ve done in our work is we, we, we’ve gone through periods of asking a bunch of questions about emotions and how people are feeling about what’s going on in the world, the climate crisis, or about politics.
[00:32:55] Dana R. Fisher: Now we ask both of those. Yes. And anger is the most amazing, uh, [00:33:00] motivator. Right. Anger and outrage. Right. And so, you know, during the first resistance to, well resistance to the first Trump administration, one of the things I said is we saw. Outrage in the streets was translated into activism and action.
[00:33:13] Dana R. Fisher: Yes, and And pressure and [00:33:15] resistance. Yeah. In electoral politics. The thing is that I, so many people do not believe that electoral politics can, electoral politics, can get us where we need to go. And in fact, I also think that without some systemic changes to our political system, electoral politics can [00:33:30] only help us swing the pendulum back.
[00:33:32] Dana R. Fisher: Right? Right. And then we’ll have like the next election that is gonna be the election that’s gonna determine the future of the world. Right. Every four years and that we cannot continue to work like that. No, no, no. So instead, I think what we need to do is [00:33:45] focus on this question about how we get to the empowerment we need so that there is enough power and real.
[00:33:52] Dana R. Fisher: I mean, I guess I just realized like, well, empowerment is basically about building power, which makes sense ’cause it’s in that word right there. Right? Ha ha. But I mean, [00:34:00] where do we do it? And how do we do it? And I always figured that we would see it happening. In on college campuses because that’s how it’s been in the past.
[00:34:08] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. I mean, and actually there, some of my work recently was picked up in the New York Times and I also, the New York Times keeps getting me like. Getting people to [00:34:15] yell at me because I was like, so this new piece that just came out on Monday was like, where there are no young people pushing back. Where are the young people?
[00:34:22] Dana R. Fisher: And the resistance and the deal is, it’s because of the reasons that we talked about. And I said to, and I said to this writer, I said, but you know, if you think back to other periods where [00:34:30] the young people were really active, there was a draft and young people were at risk of going to war.
[00:34:35] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.
[00:34:35] Dana R. Fisher: And you know, young people right now are just so numb.
[00:34:39] Dana R. Fisher: To what’s happening. And when they have tried, they have felt completely repressed. Yeah. And they haven’t felt [00:34:45] like people come out to support them.
[00:34:46] Maryam Pasha: Yes.
[00:34:46] Dana R. Fisher: So the question is how do you get over that? And it’s gonna be outrage, but what is going to be the spark that leads to that outrage? I keep thinking that we’re there, like you were saying, but I guess it’s gonna get worse.
Apocalyptic Optimism And Closing
[00:34:58] Dana R. Fisher: And that, I mean, and that just [00:35:00] leads us back to my being an apocalyptic optimist, which is, it’s gonna get worse before it gets better. And we’re gonna find our power, and I know that we will get out of this. The question is. How many people are going to lose their lives in the process? And there’s no question that some people are going to, we’re [00:35:15] already seeing it.
[00:35:15] Dana R. Fisher: Yeah. We’re seeing it with a climate crisis. I mean, and we’ve got a super El Nino coming, right? I mean, have you seen the, the reports? No. Oh no. It’s gonna be bad. I mean, and it’s interesting because I’m, no, I know
[00:35:27] Maryam Pasha: I’m leaving. I quit.
[00:35:29] Dana R. Fisher: [00:35:30] It’s gonna be bad. But you know, in some ways a perfect storm can also help people to draw those connections between.
[00:35:37] Dana R. Fisher: The prices to democracy that we’re seeing, not just in the United States, but in other parts of the world as well. Along with the climate crisis and how the [00:35:45] poly crisis can really motivate and mobilize the masses in the ways we need.
[00:35:49] Maryam Pasha: Dana, I love always chatting with you. I feel like in these moments where we’re on that elevator down, it’s really important to give us a weight of reframing it so that we can.
[00:35:59] Maryam Pasha: Find our [00:36:00] power. So thank you so much.
[00:36:01] Dana R. Fisher: Thank you for having me. Thank you for joining us this
[00:36:04] Maryam Pasha: week. We really hope you’ve enjoyed this episode.
[00:36:06] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s release. While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:36:14] Maryam Pasha: [00:36:15] Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the pod
[00:36:18] Ben Hurst: executive produced by Josie Colter,
[00:36:20] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshty.
[00:36:22] Ben Hurst: Music also by Beheshty,
[00:36:24] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston.
[00:36:27] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:36:29] Maryam Pasha: hosted [00:36:30] by Ben Hurst.
[00:36:31] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha.
[00:36:32] Maryam Pasha: And remember,
[00:36:33] Ben Hurst: stay curious.
