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Stingless bees have been around since the dinosaurs, but until recently ignored by mainstream scientific studies From her lab in the heart of the Amazon, scientist Rosa Vásquez Espinoza has been busy proving that these insects are medicinal and agricultural superbugs that require respect – both socially and legally! In conversation with Climate Curious’ Ben Hurst and Maryam Pasha, Rosa breaks down how these ancient pollinators protect 80% of the Amazon’s flora (including your coffee and chocolate!), the historic win to protect these tiny bees’ legal rights, and why her grandmother inspired her to get into chemistry.
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Welcome to Climate Curious
00:49 Meet Rosa Vásquez Espinoza
01:59 How Ben met Rosa
04:06 Fieldwork in the Amazon
05:39 Close calls and safety
08:18 Rosa’s origin story
10:36 Indigenous wisdom as science
16:20 Bridging knowledge systems
23:02 Stingless bees 101
27:02 Why we’ve ignored them
28:50 Inside the bee research
29:27 Medicinal honey breakthrough
30:26 Mapping bees and livelihoods
31:12 Women led beekeeping program
32:24 Decolonizing discovery
33:26 What medicinal molecules mean
36:07 Honey health and history
37:36 Legal rights for bees
40:46 Hope and responsibility
42:59 Recognition and representation
45:55 Reconnecting with nature
49:35 Finding nature anywhere
53:23 Favourite places and rituals
56:58 Bring your whole self
58:25 Closing and credits
Welcome to Climate Curious
[00:00:00] Ben Hurst: This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate change.
[00:00:10] Maryam Pasha: I’m Marion Pasha, the director and curator at Telex London, and the co-host of this podcast [00:00:15] alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:16] Ben Hurst: Hi, I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like and self-confessed climate norm.
[00:00:27] Maryam Pasha: This is a very special conversation. Mm-hmm. [00:00:30] Because we’re getting to speak to one of our finalists for the TEDx Global Idea Search that we had here in London back in November. And, you know, um, I’m gonna tell you about Rose in a minute, but that’s where you first [00:00:45] met her. Ben,
[00:00:45] Ben Hurst: you part level headed.
[00:00:48] Maryam Pasha: Yeah,
[00:00:48] Ben Hurst: go under pressure.
Meet Rosa Vásquez Espinoza
[00:00:49] Ben Hurst: Three words to describe Rosa,
[00:00:52] Maryam Pasha: to tell you all a little bit about Rosa and why we’re so excited because she only had six minutes to give her talk and the, I mean, the scope of [00:01:00] what she’s doing is absolutely incredible. So, Rosa Vásquez Espinoza is a Peruvian chemical biologist. She’s an author, she’s a speaker.
[00:01:07] Maryam Pasha: She’s a National Geographic explorer with Andy and Amazonian route. So her work integrates [00:01:15] traditional knowledge with modern science and technology to create solutions for our planet. And I mean, it’s actually incredible the Her discoveries have inspired new conservation policies, which we’re gonna talk about, like a global awareness of Amazonian biodiversity.[00:01:30]
[00:01:30] Maryam Pasha: I mean some very. Very important in sex, which we’re gonna talk about. And she’s been named BBC’s 100 most influential women, and she’s a recipient of Peru’s Order of Merit. So it’s kind of awesome that we get to deep [00:01:45] dive with her into this.
[00:01:46] Ben Hurst: I, I, I feel like this is a very rare occasion where like I’ve heard what the person has to talk about before we are doing the interview.
[00:01:54] Ben Hurst: So I know that this is gonna be interesting for everyone. I’m really looking forward to chatting to Rosa.
How Ben met Rosa
[00:01:59] Maryam Pasha: [00:02:00] So Ben, can you tell us a bit about when you first met Rosa, because it was quite a special circumstance where you guys met, right?
[00:02:07] Ben Hurst: Yeah, you can. I thought you were gonna say, can you tell us a bit about bees?
[00:02:10] Ben Hurst: And I was like, you do not want to know that story. The first time I met [00:02:15] Rosa was at the TEDx Lund. Well, it wasn’t TEDx London was it? It was TEDx London Global idea
[00:02:23] search.
[00:02:24] Ben Hurst: TEDx London, TEDx London Global Ideas Search, um, which was a big [00:02:30] competition. It was my first time on reality television and, and I’m assuming it was Rose’s first time on reality television as well.
[00:02:38] Ben Hurst: We were together and we were manically, rehearsing and practicing. Talks [00:02:45] for maybe 48 hours before the event where we gave our talks. And I think we, I think we both did well. I think we both did really well. I think you both smashed it. So who knows? Who knows? You watch
[00:02:54] Maryam Pasha: this space,
[00:02:54] Ben Hurst: what the outcome’s gonna be, but
[00:02:56] Maryam Pasha: watch this space.
[00:02:58] Maryam Pasha: Um, well, Rosa, we’re [00:03:00] so excited that you’re back with us, um, today and ’cause we get to, you know, you only had, what, what was it? Eight minutes, six minutes. Some ridiculously short amount of time to talk about this. Epic work that you do. And so we are really excited that we get to [00:03:15] dig into it and really hear more about you.
[00:03:17] Maryam Pasha: Yeah,
[00:03:18] Ben Hurst: super excited. So, and mm-hmm. Can I add also, sorry that I said we were both manically rehearsing that No, I,
[00:03:26] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: manic I will.
[00:03:28] Ben Hurst: You, you are like the, the, the car [00:03:30] most level-headed person I’ve ever seen in that situation,
[00:03:33] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: ever. I, I, you guys were absolutely brilliant, but just for clarification, I was.
[00:03:37] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Panicking inside my palms, were actually sweating. And that doesn’t happen to me very often ’cause I have this thing where I can [00:03:45] compartmentalize my emotions in times of crisis, which works really great in the field and in like life or tense situations. Uh, but I was definitely panicking inside, like my heart was coming out of my chest and I don’t have that all the time.
[00:03:58] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So yeah,
[00:03:59] Ben Hurst: [00:04:00] all of the same.
[00:04:01] Maryam Pasha: It, it, it did not show at all. We did not know. We didn’t know.
Fieldwork in the Amazon
[00:04:06] Maryam Pasha: Um, and I guess you just said like the life and death situations that you’re, you’ve been in. I’m hoping that you’re not in a lot of those very often, but maybe would be helpful. Um. For you to tell our listeners where you spend a lot of your time.
[00:04:23] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So I, I, I think that’s, um, that’s a fair question. Whether I am often in those situations or not that it’s [00:04:30] depending who you ask. If you ask my mother, she’ll say absolutely yes. Uh, and that may be the case, but I work across the Amazon Forest. Uh, in really, really, uh, remote areas, primarily across Peru. We have started to do some work in [00:04:45] Bolivia, um, and we lead science and indigenous, uh, wisdom work, uh, to protect lesser known species, lesser known ecosystems.
[00:04:56] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so, yeah, that sometimes that takes me to rivers that are. [00:05:00] Literally boiling and having to figure out not to fall in while you are also trying to get close to collect samples or being chased away by wasps while we’re trying to get some other samples somewhere else, or getting to meet families [00:05:15] that still live in semino ways and are really, really remote, but also really happy to chat.
[00:05:20] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, so it, it varies on the day and sometimes, of course, that comes with, with a lot of risks in, in many senses.[00:05:30]
[00:05:30] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I mean, that is not our day to day, is it Ben? That is not our day.
[00:05:35] Ben Hurst: William Rivers. I hope not. My gosh. Can you imagine? That’s crazy.
Close calls and safety
[00:05:39] Ben Hurst: So how many times have you nearly died?
[00:05:42] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Okay, so I guess. [00:05:45] I got, uh, stung by multiple wasps one time, and that was this 10 day where I realized I am allergic, which I didn’t know.
[00:05:54] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so luckily I was, was fine and I had medicine, but I mean, it was. [00:06:00] Understanding like what it, what, you know, what it could have scaled to, considering also how deep into the jungle we are. Um, and there was wasps, I think tend to be more like on my fearful [00:06:15] side. Uh, ’cause we did also accidentally almost run into a giant.
[00:06:19] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Of, I, I kind of was that in the jungle. Even the local indigenous are really very afraid of, because they are giant and they will chase you and there is a very real [00:06:30] risk of dying if you get chased by them. Um, but, you know, yeah, it just, it just varies. But we have an amazing team. I mean, we, safety is always.
[00:06:40] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: First top of our minds. And no matter how much we prepare, there’s always gonna be [00:06:45] something new and crazy that happens and they just kind of teach you to, to flow with, to go with the flow. And I think it has also taught me to just keep very, very calm in very stressful situations. Um, and you know, that comes with this [00:07:00] whole set of, of things to.
[00:07:04] Maryam Pasha: Well, let me tell you,
[00:07:05] Ben Hurst: you forget, I dunno, Miriam, if it’s the same for you, but I forget that there’s not hospitals in the, in the jungle. Like in my mind, I just had an image of like a big white hospital building [00:07:15] in the middle of a jungle, which is obviously not how it works.
[00:07:17] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Yeah. We have, we have the, you know, we have the shamans and so that, that, that can happen.
[00:07:22] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: But also if you, you know, in, in many instances we do access that information, you know, and then their knowledge and, and then they’re curing [00:07:30] for certain things. There is also the very. Or the realistic perspective that if you get beaten by a snake, you must be taken out to get, you know, different kind of, of treatment.
[00:07:40] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And depending how far you are, I mean, that may look like a plane [00:07:45] and a car ride and a five hour boat and an eight hour hiking for us. Before you can get close to a major, um, you know, we haven’t had any of those situations likely happen to us. We’re also very respectful. We just listen to the jungle. We, you know, we’re indigenous led [00:08:00] teams, so we are working in, in sync and in tune, and I think that also just kind of calls in for a different, um, yeah, just not only a different approach, but the d different kind of set of challenges that we face.
[00:08:13] Maryam Pasha: Sure, sure. So I have to [00:08:15] say, um, I was, I was not thinking that we would go down this route.
Rosa’s origin story
[00:08:18] Maryam Pasha: So I’m gonna redirect us away from near death experiences and ask you, so you spend a lot of time in the Amazon, tell us a little bit more about you and why you are there. ’cause I think that is what is super interesting.
[00:08:32] Maryam Pasha: And then we’re gonna get to the bees.
[00:08:34] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So I grew up in Peru and I was born and raised in the capital city, which is like any other BC Gray City. But my family [00:08:45] comes from indigenous parts in rural areas, both from the Indian Mountains and the Amazon Forest. And so since I am one years old, they have taken me to visit our family members and our cousins.
[00:08:57] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So I’ve had a very. Um, [00:09:00] a, a very, a childhood, very deeply rooted in remote areas of the Amazon Forest and the Indian Mountains really embedded in indigenous, uh, wisdom and culture, which is my ancestry. And so, you know, fast forward, I [00:09:15] decided to become the first scientist in my family. I studied abroad and I really wanted to make that count.
[00:09:20] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So instead of choosing. Perhaps what would’ve been the easiest, uh, um, and smartest choice for some, like go in and get a big pain [00:09:30] pharmaceutical job. I decided to throw all of out of the window and decide to build something that I had not seen in Peru, which was having a. Amazing high impact science led by indigenous people and youth.
[00:09:44] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so [00:09:45] we have been building that over the last few years with our teams. Uh, and we have different programs and, and focuses our main one being on native stainless piece. But we’ve started some work on medicinal plants on, um, tapers and giant armadillos, [00:10:00] which are animals that most people don’t even think of when they think of the Amazon Forest.
[00:10:04] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, benefiting hundreds. Of peoples across communities, helping them develop, uh, economic roots that are a avail, sustainable with their environment, re regenerating hundreds of [00:10:15] thousands of square meters of the rainforests. Um, and then we are very loud on advocacy as well. Um, and, and, and yeah, that, that’s kinda what I do.
[00:10:23] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And I split my time between the UK and Peru, uh, getting to, to share about the work [00:10:30] we’re doing too.
[00:10:34] Maryam Pasha: I mean, it is incredible.
Indigenous wisdom as science
[00:10:36] Maryam Pasha: And I guess one of the questions that when I’m became first familiar with your work, really one of the things that stuck out for me is I think we’re in this place where we are hearing more and more that we have to listen to indigenous people, that we have to engage with them, but.
[00:10:51] Maryam Pasha: There’s this romanticization around like, um, uh, indigenous people where it’s like, yes, they have lots of wisdom, [00:11:00] but not science. We have the science. And I think you are challenging that perspective
[00:11:06] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: that it’s, it, it, I think. You are vocalizing a whole fire in my belly that I perhaps didn’t know how to vocalize for a long time.[00:11:15]
[00:11:15] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So my grandmother is an indigenous healer and she perhaps didn’t call it with those words, she never had the chance to even attend school or learn how to read or write, but she was the first chemist I met, literally having such a methodic way of. Caring for [00:11:30] her garden and selecting roots and leaves and flowers and plants and curating them in a certain way to help treat certain illness.
[00:11:37] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And that is what I grew up with in her way of approaching the world. And so whenever I did. Decided [00:11:45] to pursue a career in science, and then I moved to the us So I was entering a very different culture, much more westernized, you know, one-sided approach in the academic world, which is, you know, so, so specific and narrow.
[00:11:58] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I quickly realized what the [00:12:00] rest of the world. The, the, exactly what you just described, how they were seeing the way I was brought up, and how it is not considered, um, you know, a, a accepted evidence for scientific, uh, per uh, knowledge. And it is not considered [00:12:15] science. And yet here I am understanding how even a scientific hypothesis gets developed in a scientific project, gets, you know, completed and, and recognized.
[00:12:23] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And then seeing when my grandmother. By virtue of how we grew up was doing things and then asking myself, [00:12:30] how is that not science? And then whenever I started to unravel more about some of the greatest medicines we have today that save millions of lives, um, and how, how were they discovered, for example, the case of the 2015 Nobel [00:12:45] Prize in medicine.
[00:12:46] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, this incredible Chinese doctor was challenged with the idea to find a cure for malaria many, many years ago, and they were failing to do though, with just pure laboratory techniques. So [00:13:00] she decided to turn to very old school, traditional Chinese medicine records from, you know, millennia ago, and discovered this one plant that seemed to be treating symptoms similar to malaria.
[00:13:11] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And that led to Artic, one of our. Top [00:13:15] 10 essential medicines in the world. And so understanding and seeing that and how yet there was still no way to move out of the romanticization and the acknowledgement and bring it into into the system to me just baffled my mind. [00:13:30] And I think I saw so many people talking perhaps about it, but nothing being done.
[00:13:34] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so we just quietly decided, well, let’s see if we can do science in a different way. And if that is louder. And I think it’s showing that, that it is so far. And I think it’s wrong that that
[00:13:44] Ben Hurst: is. [00:13:45] It’s like two, two versions of wisdom being mixed together, which is obviously better than one. Do you ever find it jarring though?
[00:13:53] Ben Hurst: Like, do you ever find it difficult to, do you do like code switch a lot, or is it because I, I know you’ve [00:14:00] described it as too. Different languages that you can speak, right? Like does it feel like it’s merging into one language now or is it still two very distinct things? And you have to choose which version of yourself you show up
[00:14:11] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: in.
[00:14:11] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I think I used to do that a long time ago when I [00:14:15] was trying to justify in, uh, myself in academic spaces because I didn’t feel. The confidence to justify that indigenous wisdom could be science. So definitely yes. Before I think I [00:14:30] have been able to get to a lot of beautiful answers on how indigenous wisdom sees the world through science now.
[00:14:35] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So I think now I don’t really feel that this jarring sensation for me is just, that is the whole, and that is how I see the world. So to give you a [00:14:45] very specific case. Um, one of the oldest and largest indigenous groups in South America in the Amazon Forest is the Han income and their perspective of the world, which is very similar to, um, the core of a lot of indigenous perspectives [00:15:00] globally, is that nature is a life and that there is a human-like spirit.
[00:15:04] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So whether it is a plant or a river. Or a rock. Now, when you look and talk about it in biological terms, of course in the scientific world, that will make no [00:15:15] sense by virtue of how you define life, right? And so a rock will not believe in because it doesn’t have the ability to grow and reproduce and et cetera.
[00:15:23] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: But if you look at it from a physical perspective and just going down to even the concept of physics and molecules and atoms and [00:15:30] electrons and how things interact, it is alive. Right. And so in my, I think I’ve just even, um, yeah, I’ve, I’ve gone so, so far into so many aspects of science that have helped me understand it is just the same way.
[00:15:43] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: We have different realms of science. [00:15:45] We have different ways of knowing the world that we just haven’t acknowledged. It’s not within our storytelling. It’s not in our movies. It’s not, it is not in our books. It’s not in our classrooms. It’s not in our legal systems. It’s not in our economical systems. But now the world is starting to kind of wake up.
[00:15:59] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And starting [00:16:00] to speak up, and the intern has been a great platform for that. Um, so yeah, no, uh, it’s a, that’s a great question and, and I think I, I try to remind myself to be open to that and to be very aware that I don’t have all the answers, and I’m happy to figure it out as I go.[00:16:15]
Bridging knowledge systems
[00:16:20] Maryam Pasha: Do you feel like, because I wanna come to the specific work you’ve been doing around bees ’cause and it’s what you did your talk on. But before we get there, I guess just my [00:16:30] last question in this, around this is do you feel things are changing or evolving in the way that maybe Western, um. Knowledge and, and, and, and, and science is incorporating [00:16:45] and finding ways to, to understand that language, engage with it, you know?
[00:16:51] Maryam Pasha: Is there, I guess I’m curious to see like, what happens when those things come together? Like, is it, you know, for someone who’s never thought about [00:17:00] this before, what does that look like?
[00:17:02] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: That’s a great question and I think we’re at the start. Um, so for example, for context for, you know, people that are not familiarized with this, we now in big platforms like U United Nations conferences or tv, there is [00:17:15] starting to be slightly more representation of indigenous voices.
[00:17:19] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And for many, it may seem like. Oh, then that’s great. We’re checking the box and that’s enough. When we look at the details of, for example, how legislation is being made, how policy that is having, you know, [00:17:30] tangible impacts on how an ecosystem is treated or animals are protected. Um, though a lot of those are not incorporated indigenous knowledge systems yet, um, because most of those are being based on Western published academic.
[00:17:43] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Knowledge. Uh, [00:17:45] and so I do think that because the internet is available and there’s a lot of youth like me that is descendant from indigenous people that are getting the Western education, seeing kind of like the gaps and this potential solutions coming together that are, we’re being a little bit more [00:18:00] loud about it, and we are at the moment where we’ve come with a big challenge, which is.
[00:18:05] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Wow, it is really difficult to talk about it ’cause there is such a bad history of mistrust and abuse and, you know, um, and [00:18:15] extractivism. So it becomes such a fragile conversation and I think we are in that stage, which is why I think it’s so interesting ’cause if we can move from this. Just walking around eggshells and into something productive, then I think we’re gonna see an incredible shift in how science is made and how [00:18:30] education’s being taught, how policy is drafted over the years.
[00:18:32] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So I think we’re right at that moment, um, which is why I think it’s so critical to give the spaces, you know, to the people that are kind of at the forefront of this. ’cause I, I envision that in 10 years, if we can move this conversation. At this [00:18:45] critical stage forward, then in 10 years we’re gonna have new updated systems that are not neglecting the incredible Western academic science that we need.
[00:18:53] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And that has given us, you know, surgery and, and developments in technology and ai, but that [00:19:00] has a way. To incorporate additional knowledge systems and work together. Um, because of course, if you bring a shaman that thinks that a river is alive and a very specific biologist that is telling you it’s not, the [00:19:15] first thing that we see is, oh, that clashes, that makes no sense.
[00:19:17] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: But if you find common language, or perhaps, you know, maybe these can guide you towards a certain, uh. You know, solution within this problem. And maybe you can use your scientific tools to help answer [00:19:30] if we stop the judgments. Uh, and it, it, you know, there’s no specific solution. We need to develop these frameworks and we need to develop these plans.
[00:19:38] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, but we can only get there once we get past this fragility in the conversation. That at least that’s my opinion and hope. [00:19:45]
[00:19:45] Ben Hurst: Do. Super interesting. In my mind, it looks like at the, like at the moment, what it looks like is like scientists take field trips to the jungle and sometimes you go to a conference and there’s somebody who is indigenous in tribal wear or in [00:20:00] traditional wear at a conference.
[00:20:02] Ben Hurst: But it sounds like we’re moving maybe towards like labs in the forest or like some version of, uh. Have it holding both of those things at the same time. And, and that knowledge being, um, not just [00:20:15] transferred, but also coming from those spaces in ways that we haven’t seen, which sounds really interesting.
[00:20:20] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I think you put it, I mean, beautifully right there. That’s, that’s exactly it. I think most of the science, I mean definitely historically still nowadays happens in the [00:20:30] parachute way, which a lot of people are trying to move away and are trying to figure out. What does that look like? Um, and I think if we just hold, hold those conversations, the solutions come really quickly ’cause it happened to us.
[00:20:40] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And I think our sedia, I don’t think we are special. I think we just did things slightly [00:20:45] different and look at the results we’re getting by virtue of holding those conversations, not running away from that fragility. But that’s exactly it. I think most science, you know, comes from outside, decides what’s gonna happen, decides what’s gonna be shared.
[00:20:57] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, and then without necessarily [00:21:00] incorporating that voice. And I’ve had cases of our indigenous leaders being invited to these incredible conferences and then just photos are taken. They’re not even given the space. They were promised to talk, but everybody saw them and then there, there was representation was there.
[00:21:13] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, so I think, you [00:21:15] know, that’s exactly what you’re saying. And it looks different, whether it’s a labor, a physical laboratory in there. Or just training the locals to use signs in a way that is serving the community or serving the nature and have that conversation. And I don’t think we should be scared [00:21:30] that that means, oh, that’s gonna break collaborations or that’s gonna forbid access from others to come in.
[00:21:35] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I think it’s the opposite. I think it’s just shifting the power ever so slightly so it is more equative and not be afraid of that. ’cause I think that is gonna. [00:21:45] I think it could lead to massive, massive positive revolution in, in, you know, getting solutions that we need.
[00:21:54] Maryam Pasha: I, I mean, it’s so exciting and I think something you said really stuck out to me, which is this generational shift, [00:22:00] which I think is gonna bring about the biggest change, which is that it’s no longer about, um. You know, indigenous people who are kind of in their communities and then all of a sudden get flown into a conference and they’re used as a [00:22:15] photo op.
[00:22:15] Maryam Pasha: It’s indigenous people who have gone to the top institutions are, you know, in the labs, and then they’re also bringing who they are. Into that place in, in a much more kind of fundamental way. And that [00:22:30] cannot be tokenistic because it’s driving the way that you design your work. You see the world and I, and I I want us to move on to this idea of these stingless bees, which by the way, just like little side note in context now, knowing that you were stung by a bunch of wasps and that you [00:22:45] were allergic.
[00:22:46] Ben Hurst: What?
[00:22:48] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. The, the photo of you that we have, that I’ve seen where you’re. Sat there, and I think you’re in the Amazon and you’re in one of the remote labs and you just have bees all over you, [00:23:00] um, is a lot more intense now that I, we know this.
Stingless bees 101
[00:23:02] Maryam Pasha: So tell us about. Tell us about these, like these little stingless bees and, and, and, you know, how did you encounter them?
[00:23:10] Maryam Pasha: What are they? Where are we? Transport us to where we’re supposed to be.
[00:23:14] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I’ll ask [00:23:15] you guys how, have you heard about Stingless Bees before you met me?
[00:23:19] Maryam Pasha: No, never.
[00:23:21] Ben Hurst: No way. My life would be completely different if I’d heard about stingy be before, before I met you. I would maybe would be okay with bees. [00:23:30] No, I’d never heard of those.
[00:23:31] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So I think this, this, you know, really blows people’s minds when they hear it. Is the oldest be on our planet. Stainless bees are the oldest bees on our planet from 65 to 80 million years ago. So from when the [00:23:45] dinosaurs were still alive, we don’t have dinosaurs anymore, but we do still have the stainless bee.
[00:23:49] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And I think that puts so many things into context because it even changed our understanding or when plants evolved on our planet, because before we discovered that stainless B [00:24:00] sile, we thought plants came at a certain time, but then we discovered distinguished B sal. And why would you have bees if you don’t have flowers?
[00:24:06] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, and that literally changed that. Um, and so I think I’ll start with that because it shows their incredible resilience and yet how [00:24:15] much we have ignored the oldest pollinator. Um, they are found all around our tropics. So from Mexico, Costa Rica, Australia, Asia, Africa, and the Amazon Rainforest. We know.
[00:24:29] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Some things about [00:24:30] them, but there’s still so much that hasn’t been studied because we’ve just pretty much ignored them. We don’t see stainless bees or ever heard about them anywhere, uh, movies, books, et cetera. Um, they are. By be by virtue that they are so [00:24:45] old and ancestral, they have co-evolved with a lot of the flora that we have on our tropics and subtropics, meaning they are the most efficient pollinators for many of these plants.
[00:24:54] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: In the Amazon alone, we are estimating with experts that they pollinate more than 80, [00:25:00] 80 0% of Amazon Amazonian flora, uh, and that’s native medicinal flora plus high value crops that you and I. Probably consume sometime this week. The coffee you had, the chocolate you ate, the avocado you had in your [00:25:15] toast.
[00:25:15] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, a lot of that still being produced in the Amazon Forest. And is the stainless be that yet have, you know, completely been relegated. Um, I think another thing that I find that so beautiful about them is that. The relationship [00:25:30] that I have seen people build with them, and of course, human and bee relationship is very ancestral in general across our cultures from Egypt to Greece and you know, honey being mentioned over 200 times in one of our oral oldest, uh, written records of medicine [00:25:45] in Greece, for example.
[00:25:46] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: But Stingless bees, I think by virtue that they, uh, many of their species tend to be a lot more passive and docile. Some people in the Amazon keep them in their homes as pets the same way you may have a cat or a dog. Some people live [00:26:00] with hives of stainless bees in their house. There is so much spiritual connection in like ancestral worldviews connected that some other indigenous communities.
[00:26:10] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Teach their kids to be like the bees or have their entire, um, [00:26:15] story about how the world came to be based on stainless bees. Um, eh, so it’s just that such a in-depth relationship and the honey they make, it’s quite different to anything you’ve tasted before. And remind me an example. I’m in London. I’ll bring some so I can get it to you [00:26:30] guys.
[00:26:31] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, it’s. It’s very rich in medicines. That was part of our work. That’s part of what our work documents it. And so it has played such an important role in medicine in a lot of these areas that I’m mentioning. And in the Amazon [00:26:45] Forest, when the pandemic hit, it was the top ingredients that communities were reaching to to.
[00:26:51] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: To alleviate the symptoms of COVID. Um, so yeah, I fell in, I am not an entomologist, I’m not an expert in bees, but I fell in love and obsessed with them ever since that [00:27:00] one should that you’re describing.
Why we’ve ignored them
[00:27:02] Ben Hurst: Do, do these bees exist outside of the Amazon? Like are there, are there stingless bees in other places and are there a lot of them in comparison to like, I’m struggling to, to conceptualize are they rare?
[00:27:13] Ben Hurst: Are they really [00:27:15] common? Is there loads of them and can you tell by looking at them that they are stingless or.
[00:27:20] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: No, no, you can’t, you, I will guarantee you that if I show some of them to you, you will not think they are bees because you’re not used to seeing bees that way. You will think [00:27:30] they’re ants or they’re a little mosquito that’s trying to, you know, do something else.
[00:27:33] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So no, you do find them in other countries. I think they have been because we’ve ignored them so much. People don’t even necessarily know where to look for them, or there hasn’t been really a practice of helping encourage, so they are [00:27:45] on decline globally. Um, and they have been displaced and, and by a lot of the honeybees as well in some areas, like in the Amazon Forest.
[00:27:53] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, but you know, in some areas that are still intact or really well protected, you still have abundance, [00:28:00] uh, hives of stainless beets, kind of where the areas where we’re working.
[00:28:06] Maryam Pasha: Ben, don’t you find it really sad that we haven’t heard about this until now? Like something that is so deeply like entrenched in so many cultures [00:28:15] and it has such an important role in, you know, our, our ecosystems that keep everyone alive and we’ve just never heard about it.
[00:28:24] Ben Hurst: I feel like maybe that bees are getting a bad rap now.
[00:28:27] Ben Hurst: I feel like they’ve been demonized by like my girl [00:28:30] and specific films with bee stings in them. Do you know what I mean? But I’ve never, yeah, I’m super weirded out by this and, and it is sad you’re right, like that, that there’s something that’s so fundamental to the ecosystem that just never gets, or has [00:28:45] never been spoken about in a way that’s reached us when we all obviously need it so badly.
Inside the Bee Research
[00:28:50] Maryam Pasha: And, and Rosa, tell us a bit about the research you’re doing there and, and your team.
[00:28:55] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Yeah. Um, I mean, I, I agree with you guys. I think even, [00:29:00] you know, when I did the photo shoot, I knew there are stingless. I know they cannot sting me. They have other ways to protect themselves. I knew that. But even then, because we’re so used to hearing.
[00:29:10] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And then seeing people running away, you know, on the internet and videos. That was my [00:29:15] first instinct, although knowing everything I know, so, you know, it is, it is ingrained in our system to run away for, be for most people because we’re scared that they’re gonna come sting you. That it was mine too, and I had to fight it actively in the moment.
Medicinal honey breakthrough
[00:29:27] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And I think I see that in everyone. You know, that that [00:29:30] comes new to the project and comes close to the thing. Bees, they’re like, oh, they’re really not gonna sting me. And it just this kinda human nature fear from the lack of exposure that we have to them. Um, so with our teams, we started by doing the first chemical analysis on their medicinal honey, and [00:29:45] that was with the communities.
[00:29:46] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Basically in the time of the pandemic coming out and saying, we are using it. You know, our, our ancestors have used it. Um, is there anything in the science that shows that, you know, adds validity to this? And at that time, the honey was being sell for [00:30:00] next to nothing. Like it was not really valued. ’cause it looks different, it tastes a bit different, and people thought it just means nothing.
[00:30:06] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so with our work, we showed that there were hundreds of medicinal molecules and I originally thought that that was gonna be it. That was gonna be all my involvement. I [00:30:15] was a scientist. And period. But I, I think we saw so many things opening up from there that it just has grown into this large program that we lead with my team now.
Mapping bees and livelihoods
[00:30:26] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so we have one aspect on science where we are [00:30:30] ma we are building the first map of where these distinguished bees are. And also I think I mentioned it in the talk in at the telex, but they nest inside. Trees and so they’re really difficult to find. So there’s a whole other sense of ancestral kind of, uh, understanding there, how to [00:30:45] even find them in the wild.
[00:30:46] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And that’s kinda what we are doing. We have beautiful collaborations with academic partners to study their pollination on coffee because we’ve now learned their in. Bread important for coffee, and I think we all relate to that. So that can really drive down the [00:31:00] impact, uh, understanding what parasites are impacting them so we can take action in advance.
[00:31:04] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Understanding more about the honey and helping with commercializing that because it’s critical income for the families that keep them alive and keep the forest alive.
Women led beekeeping program
[00:31:12] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, but we have a program on capacity building, so we created the first program that benefits stainless beekeeping women, because something that that I, I realized when I started this work was that a lot of the women were really keen to have the stainless bees around because they’re not afraid that their kids are gonna get.
[00:31:29] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Tongue and they [00:31:30] can keep the bees on their backyard so suddenly they can start making some income without having to leave their cultural roots behind, without having to leave the children behind. And that just to me, you know, spoke so powerful as an act, as a, as a, as a thing of change. [00:31:45] And so, yeah, we’ve been benefiting over 600 people so far with this program and we’re building expanding beyond that, that has led us to connect with.
[00:31:52] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Seminar people in other countries, like in Bolivia, where we got to meet, uh, with incredible essay women last year that came into [00:32:00] contact with the world only in 1996. Um, and, but yet are are looking for ways to make a viable income as women and they are turning to stainless bees. And yeah. And then the, the policy work, uh, I think I got really angry when I learned how much [00:32:15] they’re suffering, how little we know by virtue that there were no mention about them in the law.
[00:32:19] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so we’ve been driving a big change on that aspect too.
Decolonizing discovery
[00:32:24] Ben Hurst: So when you, when you are discovering all of the, well discovering being the, the important word in the [00:32:30] sentence, does this feel like discovery to you? Does it feel like you are, uh, I dunno who the right person is to say that’s not Colonial. Is it like a Christopher Columbus moment where you are discovering this new stuff?
[00:32:41] Ben Hurst: Or does it feel like you are just [00:32:45] recognizing the things that are already around you?
[00:32:47] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Yeah. To me, I’m just getting to have the beautiful position of getting to share what the communities want to share with the rest of the world. Um, because to, to be honest, a lot of these methods are only possible things to the [00:33:00] knowledge that they had or their, or their grandfathers or grandmothers had.
[00:33:03] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so they already knew about what stainless bi honey to use for eye cataracts, which other one to use for upper respiratory infections, which one to use for infertility. We haven’t even uncovered that [00:33:15] chemically yet. At some point, we’re gonna look for that. So, no, I, I think we’re just bringing this to the world now, you know, in a way that wasn’t done before.
What medicinal molecules mean
[00:33:26] Maryam Pasha: Let me be, let me, can I ask a geeky question? I wanna get into the geekness [00:33:30] of course. A little bit of it. When you say that you’ve like looked, you’ve found these, like medic, you said medical compound, medical molecules. Mm-hmm. What did you say?
[00:33:37] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Medi? Yeah. Medicinal molecules
[00:33:39] Maryam Pasha: You’ve identified. This. Yeah. So when you say that you’ve identified these medicinal, I [00:33:45] can’t say that.
[00:33:46] Maryam Pasha: When you say you’ve identified these medicinal molecules, what does that, what does that mean exactly? Like I’m for? For those of us who are, you know, don’t have the science background, what are be talking about here,
[00:33:59] Ben Hurst: ibuprofen, right? [00:34:00]
[00:34:01] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I love that. So basically molecules have a specific weight. So the same way when you get, you know, on a scale or I get on a scale, we have a specific weight.
[00:34:12] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Well, it depends of course on the year for me, if I’ve had too much [00:34:15] food, but. Uh, molecules have a specific weight as well, and we have a spec, uh, like machinery to help us identify those numbers, those masses and those patterns, you know, how that number shows up that are unique to the molecule. Uh, and so that [00:34:30] is very complex, complex machinery that basically kinda sh you know, should different ions and things like that at a sample that you are trying to get that information from.
[00:34:39] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So, in nature, although we may see like I have a giant leaf growing over my head. This [00:34:45] leaf may seem, you know, just a leaf, it most likely contains hundreds of molecules within it. Some may even be medicinal or not. And so whenever you take a little bit of that sample and, and treat it and process it and put it in this machine, then you can get basically a [00:35:00] readout of a bunch of numbers that now you need to make sense of.
[00:35:03] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: It’s almost like kind of going into coating. And then, um, with that, we did that basically with some honey from two stainless bee species and. We were able to kind of come down [00:35:15] with these lists that translates to the potential to have X amount of molecules. And then we look at have those molecules have been known to treat certain conditions and certain illnesses.
[00:35:28] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And so bottom line, [00:35:30] ISO molecules that were known. To treat inflammation that were great as antioxidants, that were great for like even anti-cancer and anti-tumor. And this is not me making a claim that the honey will kill all these things except that there is presence of these molecules that are known [00:35:45] to do this here, and it’s in a, in a lot richer way than.
[00:35:49] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: The honey you find in the store and so that you know it, it already kind of opens your mind as to how is that even possible. And then when you look around, what are the bees feeding on? [00:36:00] The incredible medicinal flora that we have in the Amazon Forest, and that is what makes the honey unique.
Honey health and history
[00:36:07] Ben Hurst: I was gonna say, you’d assume also, or I assume, let me speak for myself, that people who are living [00:36:15] with these bees integrated into their lifestyles have very different health outcomes.
[00:36:20] Ben Hurst: If they’re constantly in contact with these molecules that are healing useful, like good for them, it is like taking bit vitamins, right? [00:36:30] Like if you take vitamins, you have a better immune system. Um, and so maybe it’s not. Yeah, I don’t know. I’m not gonna con like make conjecture about the science, but it sounds like it might be a good place to live as long as you don’t get stung by,
[00:36:44] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I [00:36:45] mean, many people do take it, you know, to, to be able to keep up their health and like their wellbeing.
[00:36:50] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And even just honey in general, not even just talking about stainless, but honey, even the last five years, like, you know, literally now there’s been so much more new research. It’s almost kinda like making a [00:37:00] comeback, uh, in terms of its improvements for memory. For cognitive development, uh, you know, for our human health.
[00:37:07] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: It’s incredible. Um, and when we look back at historical records, many of our, you know, ancestral civilizations from Mexico to Egypt [00:37:15] to Greece, put such an importance in honey. And some of that was stainless, depending on where you were in the world, it only makes sense. We just kind of relegated that information, you know, for a long time.[00:37:30]
[00:37:31] Ben Hurst: Taste the same. Yeah.
Legal rights for bees
[00:37:36] Maryam Pasha: The other thing you mentioned that, and you talked about it in your TED Talk as well, is the policy work that you’re doing, and I think [00:37:45] that’s pretty incredible. So will you tell us a bit a bit about that?
[00:37:48] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Yeah, so we, I mean we had an a, an amazing win, um, quite recently. It literally happened I think like a week or two before the, and I had not finished processing what that meant yet, and it’s been.[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Yeah, an incredible thing ever since we achieved the first legal rights of an insect in the world, and that was, we achieved the legal rights for stingless bees and so that it became a historic case now because no insect has ever had their [00:38:15] rights recognized. So these, these centers within the rights of Nature movement, which if you have never heard of it before, it’s the idea to assign.
[00:38:22] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Personhood to nature. The same way that you have representation in court if something was to happen, a for-profit company has representation as a [00:38:30] person in courts, nature doesn’t. And so it’s this movement that is aiming to give this added layer of protection and representation to nature, um, to fill gaps that are very.
[00:38:40] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Clear and damaging to our planets. And so this has already [00:38:45] been, you know, acknowledging certain rivers and mountains, getting legal rights across the world. Some larger animals like leather, bark, turtles, uh, but never in such a tiny animal and an insect. And in this case it’s distinguished of the Amazon and that, I mean, [00:39:00] this, you know, was the result of many years and it has happened at a local low level.
[00:39:04] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I think it has really resonated with the world. It came out in the garden at the end of, of last year, and now it’s kind of gone quite global and we’ve had many other countries, even those that are not [00:39:15] part of like the Amazon Forest, kind of reach out and wanting to use this as legal precedent to protect their own wild bees from Holland to UK to us, which is really exciting.
[00:39:25] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, and so we achieved that by, by virtue that we [00:39:30] had two incredible data sets, the modern scientific academic. Information, but also the indigenous, ancestral and cultural data. Um, and I think that was, was unique of our work. We also, um, uh, assured before that, about a year before that [00:39:45] achieve, um, the a, a national law in Peru that for the first time recognizes stainless peace as the native beast.
[00:39:52] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And it’s something that sounds so obvious when I put it like that, but the reason why they’ve been. Kind of going in decline in Peru. Nobody [00:40:00] even in Peru, didn’t know about them is because the only law that talked about bees in the country talked about foreign bees. It protected and promoted the Appis Malera, which is the European African honeybee.
[00:40:11] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And because of that, our poor native Stingless bees, our [00:40:15] original bees were just completely left aside and we recognize this gap. Uh, and then it was one of the first things we fought for and it became a national law, and that was really critical to then get onto this next, next step of the legal rights.[00:40:30]
[00:40:35] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, and we’ve had conversations actually I think on the podcast about, um, rights for, for, for Rivers and, and other parts of Asia. So I think this is [00:40:45] pretty, pretty incredible.
Hope and responsibility
[00:40:46] Maryam Pasha: I mean, one of the things that I think that you have been able to do is. Is find because you mentioned like, you know, you’re working with women and, and, and, and the idea of like their income and finding ways to sustainably do this and the policy and science and I’m, I’m curious just for you personally, like how does it feel to have brought together all of these kind of in, for some people very different things?
[00:41:15] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um. It wasn’t a master plan, and I think we just saw gaps and addressed them as we went, uh, with a very passionate team. And I think had we realized what we were in for, in [00:41:30] advance, perhaps we wouldn’t, you know, have dared because we are a small, independent team with limited resources. Um, and I think it just.
[00:41:40] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I would say two words, hope and responsibility. Hope in the sense that like, [00:41:45] holy moly, like look at, we’ve actually been able to do with limited amount of money, like we’re a number, small number of people, but it’s very honest work that has just listened to indigenous voices while integrated mother size.
[00:41:58] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: If we can do this, there is [00:42:00] no excuse for anyone else to do things that always we, you know, that we’ve been doing things in. There’s no excuses. So I think to that, it’s given a lot of hope as well to the youth that we have in the Amazon and even outside. ’cause I’ve been reached by a lot of [00:42:15] indigenous kind of descendant, like the new generation that you were mentioning, you know, Maryam of like other countries that are going to to universities.
[00:42:21] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: It’s given them hope that they too can have transformational change now. Um, and I think at the same time, I just feel such a deep sense of responsibility [00:42:30] that. This is only the start. If we’ve come this far, we can go even farther guys, and how can we take now this model and show that it can apply somewhere else?
[00:42:37] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And maybe that is the legacy aspect. You know, maybe when I’m not here anymore in the world, then there is at least some sort of a path that can have [00:42:45] some sort of guidance for the next little person. Or little girl, little boy that comes from the Amazon and then just wants to change the world.
[00:42:53] Ben Hurst: And there’s, there’s evidence, right?
[00:42:55] Ben Hurst: Like there’s evidence of something being possible and something being important.
Recognition and representation
[00:42:59] Ben Hurst: Um, and you’ve like, uh, Miriam, correct me if I, if you want to stay here a little bit longer, but I, I feel like there’s a segue here, um, which was, you’ve received like global recognition on some of the biggest stages. We’re talking like UNESCO and is that how you say that?
[00:43:15] Ben Hurst: U-N-E-S-C-O, unesco. Yeah, that’s how you say it. And the BBC 100 National Geographic, did you, like, were these things that you saw for yourself in the future as a, as a child or as a young person? Or is this like all a bit, [00:43:30] is it all a bit much, is it all a bit out of left field for you?
[00:43:33] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, no, not in a million years.
[00:43:34] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I mean, even if you ask me to, when we started this project, no, not in a million years, I don’t think I had ever seen, um. Necessarily a, a [00:43:45] Peruvian lady and I think much less a scientist and much less from the Amazon. Um, so no, not was in a goal or something I even could have pictured and perhaps things could have been, you know, I don’t know.
[00:43:58] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I. There, there could have been a [00:44:00] different path or an acceleration had I seen that right? Because whenever we see something, it’s a bit easier for even our like, neural pathways to even imagining and taking us into that action path. Um, so no, uh, I didn’t even have a, an, an image of a female scientist [00:44:15] that looked like me growing up, to be honest.
[00:44:17] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So I got, whenever I did move to the US and I was meeting, um, some female scientists, regardless the, whether the fact they look like me or not, I was just very excited. Um, so I think
[00:44:27] Maryam Pasha: we made.
[00:44:28] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Yeah, exactly. Literally. [00:44:30] And so I think what to me means the most is the fact that I have heard from so much indigenous youth now, whether they’re in really remote areas, like, like I mentioned before, semi women reaching out to me from H [00:44:45] Tribe in Bolivia to, you know, uh, more indigenous, eh.
[00:44:51] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, descendant people that are attending high big units now and are trying to find a way to find their voice, keeping their authenticity, but doing something back while merging knowledge [00:45:00] systems. I think the fact that we are, at least, you know, through my story, it’s given some sort of visibility that there’s a new generation comment, then that, that sounds great.
[00:45:10] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I mean, it comes with. Of, yeah, it feels sometimes a little bit overwhelming and [00:45:15] I think whenever something like that has happened in the past, I just kind of come back and be like, okay, what, what are we doing next? ’cause I’m so in the gritty needle of everything that we do, and it just kind of makes us re refocus even more and say like, okay, people are listening and there’s been.
[00:45:29] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So many times [00:45:30] we wanted to give up. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s such a heart root. Um, so if anything, it’s just been an encouragement that like, okay, it seems like what we’re doing is resonating. It seems like it’s leading to something, so maybe let’s just keep going even if it feels so uncertain, you know, and we can only see two months in [00:45:45] advance.
[00:45:45] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, and yeah, I, I just hope it, it makes it easier for anybody coming after.
Reconnecting with nature
[00:45:55] Maryam Pasha: I have a question for you because I think that’s kind of incredible, this [00:46:00] idea of creating that precedent. Um, and so something that I feel listening to you and tell me if this is right, but is that you have a really deep connection to nature that like. [00:46:15] That you, your, you have a deep connection to science, uh, in the tra like in the la in the, in the way that maybe in the west we look at it.
[00:46:22] Maryam Pasha: You have a deep connection to nature and a deep connection to your an ancestral past. Is that, is that, first of all, am [00:46:30] I right? Does that feel right to you? Do you feel that deep connection to nature? And do you think it’s important as a way of how it inspires your work?
[00:46:38] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Yes, I think, I think that’s beautifully put.
[00:46:40] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And I will also say that it has not always been the case, and I think that [00:46:45] it’s something that’s worth mentioning because I think it is, um, we are living in such a fast paced world and I am in and around big, fast paced cities as well. Um, and I wish I would’ve heard this from somebody else back in the day.
[00:46:59] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: [00:47:00] So yes, now I feel like I’ve come to really. Um, come to who I am and like be very confident and comfortable in the things I believe in and that I work with. And I do think my relationship to nature is absolutely what guides my [00:47:15] every single day and my mental health and my relationships as well, and how I live my life.
[00:47:20] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, and my work in science helps me elevate that I feel. Uh, but when I, when I say it was not always like that when I moved from Perdu. To the US and then I went in, [00:47:30] into, you know, away from family and into a very different everything and also very Americanized working culture, which I think many people can relate to.
[00:47:39] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: The world is difficult right now. Financial, you know, crisis everywhere. Um, [00:47:45] I really lost in a way that. Deep sense of connection that I grew up with, with nature, and it felt really isolating and um, and, and sad and difficult. And I think only when I realized that I had deprived [00:48:00] myself so much from it that I was craving to come back to my indigenous roots, if you may.
[00:48:06] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And at first I thought I couldn’t do it unless I was back in the jungle. I had this weird idea that I had to be back there to feel it. And I [00:48:15] think in the time of the pandemic. I panicked because how could I go when I was finishing my PhD in Michigan in cold winter over there and I thought I was just gonna lose myself.
[00:48:26] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And then I think it just took me some experiences to realize [00:48:30] you don’t need to be in the deep of jungle to feel that super deep nature. You just need to be aware wherever you are. Aware of the one tree. Aware of the one Bird aware and grateful and be very meaningful in cultivating that relationship with your natural surround thiss, [00:48:45] even if it’s minimal.
[00:48:46] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And to me that was such a critical way of changing how I see things and also what impact even means, you know? And being very aware and I think even connect with how a lot of the people feel nowadays. A lot of youth as well. And, um, [00:49:00] yeah, and, and then. Perhaps offering, you know, some, some words that I wish I would’ve heard at the time.
[00:49:04] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, and I think we need more of that because we are, you know, as a society we’ve taken decisions that are, have been really, really, um, bad for nature. And I think [00:49:15] part of that is ’cause we’ve forgotten to feel joy for it. And we forgotten how we feel when we were children putting our feet in the sand or, you know, hugging a tree.
[00:49:23] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And if we just remember a bit more of that, God, I actually do think it’ll be transformational.[00:49:30]
Finding nature anywhere
[00:49:35] Maryam Pasha: I really appreciate you sharing this idea that you weren’t always connected, because I do think that that for those of us who’ve [00:49:45] struggled with our connection to nature, sometimes we, at least I have felt, I won’t speak for other people. I felt, because I struggle with the connection to nature. That if you don’t have it, that somehow you’re just not gonna have it.
[00:49:58] Maryam Pasha: That like, you either have it or you [00:50:00] don’t, and Yeah, you’re
[00:50:00] Ben Hurst: born with it or it, or it, it can’t be, uh, developed. Yeah.
[00:50:05] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Like it’s, it’s like part of your family and part of the way you’re brought up or it’s not. And then that’s it, you know, and that’s determined for you. And I, I feel like. One [00:50:15] of the things that whenever I’ve had like the privilege of working with, with lots of people who work in nature, but I think it’s particularly, I.
[00:50:25] Maryam Pasha: Present for me when I get to work with anyone who is from an indigenous community [00:50:30] is I feel this like, um, gap in myself that no, that I never realized before. And it’s, it’s, it’s like, um, it’s like when you see someone has something that you never [00:50:45] realized and then you realize, oh, I’m missing that in myself.
[00:50:49] Maryam Pasha: And so I think this idea that we can find that connection that we don’t have to go and like. You know, into the middle of nowhere, whatever that might be for you or into like the jungle or into the [00:51:00] ocean or whatever the, that, that like into is, but that you can find it where you are. I think feels so much more accessible for people.
[00:51:09] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And I think this was realistic. And I think, you know, I, I’ve, I’ve had people I think, see [00:51:15] judgment in their eyes when they hear, I live in England. ’cause they’re like, well what do you mean? Shouldn’t you be in the Amazon? What will you leave? You know, if you’re saying you protect nature and you’re working for nature.
[00:51:24] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And then I think that is rejecting what the reality of the world looks like. [00:51:30] Everybody, we are all living in a multicultural world. Most families are building a multicultural way. Whether we want it or not. And it’s the same in the Amazon, in some of the most remote communities I meet you, the, the, the kids there will know what Little hill to go to, [00:51:45] to put their phone and access TikTok.
[00:51:46] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: So they will be up to the trends that every, the rest of the world that you and I are watching, listening, Shakira, you know, talking about Adidas and all these things. So it is, we are all. Connected like that, whether we want to admit it or [00:52:00] not. And I think in a way it can be so relieving to recognize that ’cause like the way you were saying, you know, like having this sense of missing something.
[00:52:07] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I felt that too. So much, I was so away from my roots and I realized I didn’t, yeah. By even [00:52:15] getting connected to what that meant or my. My ancest and not feeling bad that if I’m not there permanent, maybe I’m appropriated and I’m taking that badly. I think it’s moving away from that fragility. It made me feel a lot more reconnected, uh, and then finding ways what that means to [00:52:30] me now, you know, and being okay with those new.
[00:52:33] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: New meanings, whether it’s I’m enjoying going in a late night walk and appreciating the stars and feeling really full in that moment, and very grateful for that, uh, whether I’m in the city, in Bath, in London, or in the Amazon [00:52:45] Forest. Um, so yeah, I, I think it’s, it’s such a simple concept and if we allow ourselves permission to do that, then you know, things can look a little different.
[00:52:56] Ben Hurst: Hmm. I feel, I feel like you’ve given us [00:53:00] permission to do that, which is nice. ’cause it doesn’t, it doesn’t always feel that way. And I think it can feel like a lot of, um, a lot of pressure to do it in a certain way. Um. Like you are failing if you haven’t done it in a [00:53:15] specific way or you can’t point to any examples.
[00:53:17] Ben Hurst: And I love some of those examples that you gave of like looking at the stars and, and feeling connected to nature.
Favorite Places and Rituals
[00:53:23] Ben Hurst: Um, I’m wondering if you’ve got any other, like have you, have you got favorite places or, now I can’t get that image of the kids on the hill out of my, out of my mind. And I imagine if you ask them where their favorite places, where they’d be, like, where I can get a signal.
[00:53:37] Ben Hurst: But do you have like, um. Do you have any favorite places or like memories in nature?
[00:53:44] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, [00:53:45] you know, I, I, I think. I mean, I, I can think of, of plenty definitely being in, in a river and near water, although I’m not like a diver or anything like that. Um, but being anywhere near water. And so, uh, of course, you know, anytime, of course we’re [00:54:00] traversing down the Amazon and you get to see just the infinite.
[00:54:02] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: But I think I try to take that in that same sense of wonder. And then I think if we try enough, then you start to see the world like that. Um, even when I’m walking, you know, in, in Summerset. And then there’s a river and then I’m just gonna staying [00:54:15] still and like just really focusing on all the details.
[00:54:17] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, and then just being very appreciative like that. I think, yeah, being by water makes me relax. There is a lot of scientific evidence how that actually does help, you know, lower your blood pressure, um, walking after the rain as well. There is a lot of. [00:54:30] Beautiful scientific evidence that there’s lire molecules that are coming there and soothing your brain.
[00:54:34] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Um, so I do make an attempt to, to go out there wherever I am, if it’s the Amazon or here and walking at night. I not, it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but for me, I feel very, very, [00:54:45] uh, one, um, feels very protective to me and I think, I like to think of the, the universe that way, um, that is working on my favor.
[00:54:52] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: And the same for nature. Um, and, and, yeah.
[00:54:57] Ben Hurst: Thank you for, thank you for sharing it. I [00:55:00] feel like it’s a, it’s the beauty of, of knowing that nature is everywhere and you can connect to it wherever you are right. In, in whichever context you’re in.
[00:55:09] Maryam Pasha: And also like the, the. It’s not always a like, so I love all those things [00:55:15] except the walking after the rain.
[00:55:16] Maryam Pasha: Cool. I try to stay away from rain, but, but I love walking at night. I love being my water and I think it has taken me a very long time to ex, to like let myself. Think of those things as being with nature, [00:55:30] because for so long it was so many like very prescribed things. Like Ben and I, if you listen to this podcast, you’ve heard me say this before, but I say that like, I don’t wanna be camping.
[00:55:40] Maryam Pasha: I don’t wanna be hiking. I don’t wanna be doing those things. They’re not my cup of tea. [00:55:45] But do I love swimming in the ocean? Do I love being in forests? Like do I love being out in the stars? Absolutely. But it felt like. It was like that was never enough. And then so therefore I was just like not a nature person.
[00:55:58] Maryam Pasha: And so it was just so beautiful [00:56:00] to hear you talk about those things and give us permission to find our own way to connect. Because I feel like when I hear about you and your work, your connect, your ability to connect all of these things is [00:56:15] like a superpower and it has allowed you to do things that if anyone had tried to do them.
[00:56:20] Maryam Pasha: In isolation would not have been possible.
[00:56:23] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:56:24] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: No, that’s a great thank you for, for saying that. And I think it, it’s that narrative, right? It’s a storytelling again, like [00:56:30] what we see is what we think it’s supposed to be like. And I, I think we are, yeah, we’re so used to seeing these very immersive and deep and very unique one-sided experiences to be one with nature.
[00:56:40] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: But I will tell you, if I’m with a group of indigenous women in the jungle and we’re [00:56:45] just chilling at night, we are gonna be doing what I feel I end up doing here in Bath as well, which is look up at the stars and just chat. And it feels very the same, although of course it is at the same time, not, but it is a continuum.
Bring your whole self
[00:56:58] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Uh, and I will say I had [00:57:00] one particular experience, I think, um, that did help me kind of, um, understand this, which is what I really hold onto and was with ICA and the feeling that nature was disappearing and that I could tap into it anywhere. And it’s something so simple [00:57:15] that it is just, I, to me it was, yeah, it was very transformational.
[00:57:17] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: ’cause I think I needed it. To survive, um, based of how disconnected I had myself grown to be. You know? Um, and I think that’s also the beauty of letting someone kind of come in fully to who they [00:57:30] are. Like, at least in the typical scientific academic world, you know, we want people to be this extremely narrow focus, which of course is needed in so many ways, but at the same time, that can deprive someone from other ways of.
[00:57:43] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: Knowing and viewing. Um, [00:57:45] and I was very deep, always like in the arts and for a long time was very scared to even kind of mention that. And then the moment I was just like, you know what, instead of making that disappear, I’m just gonna keep it within myself. And then just bringing yourself [00:58:00] fully instead of what we think it should be.
[00:58:01] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: That’s the only way to make a new path, otherwise you’re just repeating the other path. And I think when we’re comfortable with that, then, you know, um, yeah, different things can emerge.
[00:58:13] Ben Hurst: Great. There are other [00:58:15] questions, but I feel like you’ve answered them more. Like, it’s like also what can people do to connect with nature, but I feel like you’ve told us what we can do to connect with nature in its life.
[00:58:24] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: I loved it.
[00:58:24] Maryam Pasha: I
Closing and credits
[00:58:25] Rosa Vásquez Espinoza: actually, I actually love to end it there. I think that’s a beautiful way to end it. [00:58:30]
[00:58:30] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for joining us this week. We really hope you’ve enjoyed this episode.
[00:58:33] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s release. While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:58:41] Maryam Pasha: Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the Apology
[00:58:44] Ben Hurst: [00:58:45] executive produced by Josie Colter,
[00:58:47] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshty
[00:58:48] Ben Hurst: Music also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:58:50] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Izzy Gladston.
[00:58:53] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:58:56] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:58:57] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha,
[00:58:59] Maryam Pasha: and remember, [00:59:00]
[00:59:00] Ben Hurst: stay curious.
