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The rainforest has some unexpected guardians—satellites! Associate professor Dr. Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez from the University of Oxford joins Climate Curious to reveal how satellite data is revealing hidden biodiversity patterns in rainforests, informing more effective conservation efforts, and offering fresh insights into the health of the planet’s lushest landscapes––the tropics. 

Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston

Transcript

00:00 Introduction to Climate Curious
00:24 Meet the hosts: Maryam and Ben
01:30 Dr. Jesus Aguirre Gutierrez: background and journey
02:07 The importance of rainforests
05:08 Using satellites to map biodiversity
07:53 Impact of climate change on biodiversity
14:52 Forest adaptation and future
18:03 Reforestation and community adaptation
21:29 Using satellite technology for environmental research
22:58 Challenges and strategies in deforestation
25:02 Impact of poverty on deforestation
26:42 Surprising discoveries in tropical forests
28:36 Reforestation and conservation efforts
34:19 Understanding forest health via satellite imagery
36:01 Rewilding and its importance
37:44 Practical steps for supporting biodiversity
39:32 Exciting new technologies in environmental research
40:27 Climate Confessions and final thoughts

Introduction to Climate Curious

[00:00:00] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think we could also be positive and feel positive in the sense that these new trees, these new communities, the small ones are actually trying to adapt better and they are doing better in adapting to this new climate. So not everything is lost. This

[00:00:17] Ben Hurst: is Climate Curious. The [00:00:20] podcast for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate change.

Meet the Hosts: Maryam and Ben

[00:00:24] Maryam Pasha: I’m Maryam Pasha, the director and curator at TEDxLondon, and the co host of this podcast, alongside the amazing Ben.

[00:00:30] Ben Hurst: Hi, I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like, and self confessed climate normie.[00:00:40]

[00:00:42] Hello, curious friends. Hello, Maryam. Hello! Hello, um. This week I’m super excited.

[00:00:49] Ben Hurst: I am super excited because we’ve got a first on this episode of Climate Curious. We’re gonna be speaking to a rainforest expert from Oxford [00:01:00] University. Love a good love Oxford. Love, love a good rainforest. And I think that it’s safe to say that all of us know, all of us think and believe deeply that rainforests are very important.

[00:01:10] But I feel like on a personal level, I’ve never actually stopped to ask. Why? Or how? Or when? Or where? Any of those questions. Um, and what do we do? [00:01:20] Like, we know that they’re really, really important, but like, what do we do about the fact that they’re so important?

[00:01:24] Maryam Pasha: Lucky, isn’t it? That we have with us an expert to help us answer this question.

Dr. Jesus Aguirre Gutierrez: background and journey

[00:01:30] Maryam Pasha: So we’re joined today by associate professor at the School of Geography and the Environment at the University of Oxford, Dr. Jesus Aguirre Gutierrez. [00:01:40] And he’s talking to us about some pretty exciting stuff. So rainforest, yes, but technology in the form of satellites. Yes. Biodiversity, nature. Yes. Tick.

[00:01:51] We’re checking all of them. Um, fair to say, I think we’re going to learn a lot.

[00:01:55] Ben Hurst: Uh, I mean, we are here in Oxford.

[00:01:57] Maryam Pasha: So I’m like, I

[00:01:59] Ben Hurst: feel [00:02:00] like I’m just absorbing knowledge from the wolves. Yeah.

[00:02:02] Maryam Pasha: Let’s dive straight into it. Um, so much. Welcome. We’re here at Oxford.

The Importance of Rainforests

[00:02:07] Maryam Pasha: You’re an associate professor here, but I want you to tell me just a little bit about your background and what you work on before we get into the real detail.

[00:02:15] Who are you, man? Who are you?

[00:02:17] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Okay. Uh, so, uh, [00:02:20] I have to start. I’m Mexican. Um, um, I grew up in there and I studied biology at the University of Guadalajara. Um, and then I actually worked with indigenous communities for two years living and working with them in the north of Mexico, in the mountains, the Rarámuri.

[00:02:35] And that actually connected me a lot more to nature and society [00:02:40] and, and to biology where I had studied. Then I moved to do a master’s in the Netherlands in tropical ecology. That’s a big, a big shift. Yeah, it’s quite a big one. And I stayed there. I, for almost 10 years, did my PhD as well in the Natural History Museum of the Netherlands.

[00:02:56] Oh, wow. That must

[00:02:57] Maryam Pasha: be very cool.

[00:02:58] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: It was fantastic. [00:03:00] Quite a change from the mountainous areas in Mexico to the flatlands. Like the lowest of the lowest. Riding bikes everywhere. Really bad. And then, uh, I, I got a fellowship from the Netherlands Organization for Scientific Research that brought me to Oxford, actually.

[00:03:14] It’s kind of an outgoing fellowship. Um, from there, I’ve been here since 2017. [00:03:20]

[00:03:20] Maryam Pasha: Growing up in Mexico and, and, and that first step, why, why this work? Why working with indigenous communities? Kind of, of all the things you could do, what was it that attracted you to, to starting down this path?

[00:03:32] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think it’s, it’s, it was two main things.

[00:03:34] Uh, so Mexico is quite, I don’t know if you can say it, unequal, really in [00:03:40] social classes, they have the very rich, which are kind of a minimum, and then the really, really poor, that is like, I don’t know, 50 percent of the population or something like that. Right. And I saw that since before I started in biology, uh, but also after that, and this has a specific connotation as well about the kind of landscapes.

[00:03:59] Where these [00:04:00] people live and the biodiversity they have in their landscape. And so that really took me into thinking about indigenous communities who live actually in the forest. Uh, what’s happening with the biodiversity around them because they really depend on it. Right. Well, they live on it. It’s their way of living.

[00:04:15] It’s their way of living. And that’s why I just, I felt like I want to know more [00:04:20] basically. That took me to living with them.

[00:04:23] Maryam Pasha: That’s

[00:04:23] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: incredible. So

[00:04:23] Ben Hurst: interesting. So where do the poor, where do the poor people live or the lower, you said it’s linked to the biodiversity.

[00:04:29] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So, but it’s, uh, these specific communities live, uh, they are called Raramuri, the indigenous community.

[00:04:34] So you have across all Mexico, different indigenous groups. Okay. And these lived in the north, [00:04:40] in Chihuahua, which is the biggest state close to the border with the U. S. And this is really mountainous terrain, and this is kind of coniferous forest, like pines, for instance. And they really depend on it. And there are several of these locations where they live that are quite pristine to some extent, but others are actually totally deforested.

[00:04:58] There is nothing, [00:05:00] there is not much more, right? So they have to move around. basically to trying to get better conditions for their living.

Using satellites to map biodiversity

[00:05:08] Maryam Pasha: So you work with satellites to help map biodiversity. Can you tell us a bit more about that? Tell us a bit about your work here at Oxford and your work today.

[00:05:19] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Cool.

[00:05:19] Yes, [00:05:20] sure. So since the beginning of my career, so what I’ve been doing, as I mentioned, is working directly with people in the places. And this gives you Very fine detail information about what is going on in their lands, right? And you can talk to people, they tell you what they are feeling, what is [00:05:40] happening to the surroundings and the biodiversity there.

[00:05:42] But then the question is, how can you really extrapolate this knowledge, uh, to, to larger scales. Right. Uh, is it the same happening in the North of Mexico than in the South? Is the same happening in Brazil or in Africa? Right. And that gave like that, that those were kind of the [00:06:00] questions that I had at the beginning.

[00:06:01] And I think one of the approaches to actually try to answer some of these questions, trying to understand how biodiversity is responding to stress or like climate change. or land use changes using satellite data.

[00:06:13] Maryam Pasha: Right, right. So first of all, what are you seeing? You said there are changes, there are things happening.

[00:06:18] What is happening on the [00:06:20] ground?

[00:06:20] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So you can think about this in, let’s say, two different ways. The first one is what is happening across a space. So comparing locations in the same time. Okay. So is this area kind of fuller, let’s say, or it has more biodiversity based on the amount of forest that you see, based on the amount of water [00:06:40] that you see in the image.

[00:06:41] Biodiversity is plants. It plants, it can be, you can see different things like with these satellite data that you have. Resolutions of centimeters, you can see animals, you can see elephants, for instance, you can, you can quantify them as well. So not like bacteria and stuff,

[00:06:55] Ben Hurst: but elephants, tigers, the type of animals [00:07:00] doesn’t matter specifically, sorry, sorry, that’s just my brain being weird, but anything that you, you can see what’s in an area.

[00:07:06] Yes, exactly. You can see what,

[00:07:07] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: what is in an area. Like when you take a picture with your mobile phone, you just kind of see. See, I almost seen almost the same, but from the satellite.

[00:07:15] Ben Hurst: Okay.

[00:07:16] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So it’s like Google maps. You’re using satellites

[00:07:18] Ben Hurst: for Google maps. [00:07:20] Exactly. I

[00:07:20] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: get that. That, that kind of images. So, and then you can think of as well about not only across a space, but also across time.

[00:07:28] Because these images, some of them actually, you can have them every day from the same location. So you can see how a place has changed through time over the last year, the last 10 years, the [00:07:40] last, even the last 40 years. So that’s what I’m doing, looking how biodiversity changes in a space and comparing locations, but also how it changes through time.

[00:07:52] Maryam Pasha: I have lots of questions.

Impact of climate change on biodiversity

[00:07:53] Maryam Pasha: Um, just a basic one to start with, for people listening and for me, I [00:08:00] think, is How would you explain the link between like biodiversity? How is that important to climate conversation and climate change? What is the interaction between biodiversity and climate change?

[00:08:12] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think one of the main links in here when you think about climate change is CO2 emissions.

[00:08:18] Uh, most people [00:08:20] are worried about our CO2 emissions because that has have an impact in the rise of temperature. And if you think about basically who are the main. Individuals that contain those CO2 emissions or that carbon is trees. They are one of the main ones, right? The ocean as well. So if you are able to quantify [00:08:40] how many trees, how much what we call biomass you have in an area, then you can think about how much they are absorbing the carbon that we are putting out in the atmosphere.

[00:08:51] And that’s why it is very important to be able to quantify this.

[00:08:56] Maryam Pasha: So, what, can you talk to us about [00:09:00] what are you seeing? Because I think that you’re right, it’s really interesting not just to compare between, but to have this time kind of data of things and as they’re changing. First of all, I guess, how far back can you go in terms of the data from satellite?

[00:09:14] How much data do you have? How far back can you go? How far back can you see?

[00:09:18] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think one of [00:09:20] the main satellites that is, that has been going around has, is the, what they call the Landsat is the name is a family of satellites. And they go back to about, I think the seventies, seventies, eighties. So basically you can have very good data over the past 40 years.

[00:09:38] Wow. And then [00:09:40] you can see how much forest we have lost. How much forest we have actually recovered as well. If it actually is losing, is being lost in one area, but is recovering in another area. So you can see the impacts that we are having on this vegetation. And then again, you can start thinking about quantifying, uh, quantifying [00:10:00] how much carbon, let’s say, we have lost to some extent to the atmosphere.

[00:10:04] And how much and where we are actually putting it down into, into the ground. Right. Because when you

[00:10:10] Maryam Pasha: destroy these rainforests, they release the carbon.

[00:10:14] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: But also they release a carbon and they are not capturing any more than carbon that was in

[00:10:18] Ben Hurst: there. Right. So [00:10:20] it’s a double whammy. It’s like you’re getting rid of the, the capture device and the capture device is releasing all of the stuff.

[00:10:26] Exactly. Because it’s decomposing. Okay. And so is your, is your work, are you the person that puts the satellites up or are you the person that looks at the photos?

[00:10:37] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I wish I knew how to put the satellites up, [00:10:40] I love that, I love it, uh, no, but I, I actually use the data already. So these data from, from NASA, uh, but also the ESA, which is the European Space Agency and they have fantastic satellites with really top notch.

[00:10:54] Kind of images. Uh, and there are other also private companies and these [00:11:00] satellite data again, this comes like really pixels. So these squares that you see, uh, from about 10 centimeters from the satellite, right? So you can actually really see a tree. You can start forming the image, the figure, because these pixels, like the pixels that you have in the TV or in your mobile phone camera, they are like 10 centimeters size.

[00:11:19] [00:11:20] Oh,

[00:11:20] Maryam Pasha: wow.

[00:11:20] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So you can actually see single trees. It’s when, like when you zoom into Google Earth or Google Maps, and then you can see houses, cars, trees.

[00:11:31] Ben Hurst: That’s crazy. I mean, yeah, I,

[00:11:33] Maryam Pasha: I, so this is quite interesting. I’ve

[00:11:36] Ben Hurst: got so many questions, I’m like, how many satellites are there? Where are they? Yeah. Sorry. Keep [00:11:40] going.

[00:11:40] Maryam Pasha: What I’m really curious to know, what are the patterns that you’re seeing?

[00:11:44] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Yes. So general patterns. So general patterns, what we, what we see now is that. Some, some of forest specifically talking about the tropics. I focus on the tropics. So

[00:11:53] Maryam Pasha: that’s like where people, if people don’t know, where is that, what, what, what part of the world are we looking at?

[00:11:57] We’re looking at Brazil.

[00:11:59] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So you can think [00:12:00] about the tropics, like from. Central Mexico down all the way to South, kind of Southern Brazil, all the way when you go to Africa, then you can think about Ghana, Gabon, Cameroon, it’s all still in the tropics. Congo.

[00:12:15] Maryam Pasha: So the Amazon and the Congo Basin, and they’re all in this region.

[00:12:19] [00:12:20] Southeast Asia,

[00:12:21] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Malaysia, Borneo, they are within the tropics. And

[00:12:23] Maryam Pasha: these are the most important rainforests, right, in a way. These are the rainforests that hold a lot of the carbon.

[00:12:28] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: And they hold. a lot of the biodiversity in general, animals, plants, and they carry out functions. And one of those functions is kind of holding the carbon, a lot of the carbon.

[00:12:39] And [00:12:40] also one of the others that hold a lot of the carbon is the sea as well. But I like to focus on the tropics. Okay.

[00:12:46] Maryam Pasha: So what are those patterns that you’re seeing? So

[00:12:49] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: we see the tropical forests across the different continents. They are responding in different ways. Oh, for instance, some of the African forest are kind of [00:13:00] stabilizing in the carbon, seeing how much carbon they, they capture.

[00:13:04] Uh, this has happened also in the Amazon, and this is research that has been, uh, published in the last couple of years, so they are not capturing as much carbon, let’s say. So basically getting

[00:13:15] Maryam Pasha: saturated or full.

[00:13:17] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: To some extent, exactly. And [00:13:20] beyond that, also thinking about the biodiversity, and this is some new research that we, that is soon to be published, uh, is that in, if you think about the tropical Americas, these tropical areas in the Americas, we quantified how Plants, how the communities of plants have changed through time over the last [00:13:40] 40 years,

[00:13:40] Maryam Pasha: right?

[00:13:41] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So we see that We wanted to see how much they are kind of in the path of tracking or adapting to increasing temperature and and if they are where these they are adapting better and where are they are not Potentially adapting to these new climates, right? [00:14:00] So what we see is that Most of these communities actually are not adapting as fast as we wish they would be adapting.

[00:14:08] And this is when you think about these big trees, right? Because they cannot move.

[00:14:13] Ben Hurst: What

[00:14:13] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: they can do is either adapt to where they are, with the new conditions, die or disperse, [00:14:20] right? With the seeds. But if you think about dispersal, how far can a seed travel, and how long in time it would need to, let’s say, jump from the Amazon to the mountains in the Andes, which they are a bit cooler, potentially with better temperature.

[00:14:36] So it would take a lot of time.

[00:14:37] Maryam Pasha: And they have to survive. And they have

[00:14:39] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: to [00:14:40] survive.

[00:14:41] Maryam Pasha: So what happens when they’re not adapting? Was, what are you seeing happening to these, these, this, these trees and these other plants there that are not adapting to the change?

Forest adaptation and future

[00:14:52] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So what, what we see now, this is with the big trees, right?

[00:14:55] But if you think, we were thinking what is happening with the newcomers.

[00:14:58] Maryam Pasha: Okay.

[00:14:59] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: With the [00:15:00] seedlings.

[00:15:00] Maryam Pasha: Okay.

[00:15:00] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: What kind of characteristics they have.

[00:15:02] Maryam Pasha: Oh, interesting.

[00:15:03] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: And we see that those newcomers into the ones that are surviving and they are seeds and they start growing, they have these new traits that we call them like new characteristics in the leaves and the kind of wood they have.

[00:15:15] And it seems that these characteristics are more in line into this adaptation [00:15:20] to higher temperatures and lower precipitation. So what we think is that this forest of the future, this actually these things, these small seedlings, may be the forest of the future. So we, we are Now, kind of trying to understand, okay, these are the traits that we should think about when we are thinking about reforestation programs, for instance, [00:15:40] because they are the ones that we see that are doing better now.

[00:15:43] The type of species that are becoming more abundant.

[00:15:46] Maryam Pasha: Oh, I see. So those species that are more suited

[00:15:50] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: to the

[00:15:50] Ben Hurst: areas, okay, they are

[00:15:52] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: becoming more abundant.

[00:15:53] Maryam Pasha: And is that good? Bad? Like, how are we supposed to feel about, like, I, you know, if I’m this

[00:15:58] Ben Hurst: sounds very scary. [00:16:00] It sounds like it sounds like things like, I feel like I’m not saying anything cause I’m just kind of waiting for bad news.

[00:16:05] Is this bad news or is it good news or like, should we feel positive or scared about it

[00:16:11] Maryam Pasha: or something or something

[00:16:12] Ben Hurst: else or another emotion?

[00:16:14] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I mean, to some extent we should. Keep in mind that we are putting too much, uh, gases [00:16:20] into the atmosphere and we have to modify that. And this is a result like these changes that we see or the lack of change in the, in the biodiversity is a result of these.

[00:16:30] But I think we could also be positive and feel positive in the sense that these new trees, these new communities, the small ones are actually [00:16:40] trying to adapt better and they are doing better, uh, in adapting to these new climates. So not everything is lost. That’s what I’m trying to say.

[00:16:48] Ben Hurst: And you said, you said, um, you called them forests of the future, which is a really interesting way of describing it.

[00:16:54] Cause in my mind, a forest is like a expendable resource. It’s like, that’s the [00:17:00] wrong way of saying it, but it’s like a thing that once it’s gone, it’s gone and there’s no, you can’t get a new one because it takes a long time for trees to grow. Right. But does that mean that forests move and change over time?

[00:17:11] Like can we expect new forests in the mountains to start to appear? Okay.

[00:17:16] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Yes, I think, I mean, it takes time. Yeah, but they are [00:17:20] dynamic. So they are, they are changing. Uh, I think what we are seeing now is that the forests are still there. But the kind of species that you have is changing. So the, the, it’s like, it’s like kind of the faces of the forest are changing around.

[00:17:39] [00:17:40] This is being kind of reshuffled. Yeah. But it is still the rainforest. Perhaps. Better, like, trying to prepare for these environments that are drier and that are hotter. Right.

[00:17:51] Maryam Pasha: I have lots of questions. Obviously, there are communities that, I’m assuming some of the indigenous communities that you work to rely on these [00:18:00] forests for their livelihoods, you’ve taken care of these forests for generations.

Reforestation and community adaptation

[00:18:03] Maryam Pasha: What’s the impact of these changes on, on those communities there?

[00:18:08] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Sure. I think it, it, it, it kind of depends to where you are. Sure. Well, there are some areas that are more impacted than others. If, just talking for instance, about this tropical forest in Mexico and the [00:18:20] communities that live in there. So most of the work that we do here in ECI and in, in my lab, basically we, we try to work together with the communities that are on the ground.

[00:18:30] Mm-hmm. And also with the local partners. Uh, from each country because they know exactly the reality, right? And there are some areas that definitely [00:18:40] people have even have had to move around to find some other locations where they can find basically the, the, the things that they need to survive. Uh, but there are others that are also communities that are trying to adapt to these new conditions, making use of the, the species that are becoming more abundant, uh, actually helping also with the [00:19:00] restoration and reforestation programs, collecting the seeds from the trees and basically trying to kind of make this a bit more sustainable as well.

[00:19:07] So they, they get their livelihoods as well from working in these kinds of areas. Right.

[00:19:11] Right.

[00:19:12] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Uh, but definitely there has been a negative impact. Um, on them and the livelihoods, but I guess [00:19:20] several of them or most of them are actually trying to adapt and just work with it and work with the different organizations that are, that are dealing with these issues.

[00:19:29] Maryam Pasha: You mentioned earlier that one of the ways that you can apply this understanding is in reforestation efforts. So like if there are certain species that are better adapted and surviving to [00:19:40] these new climate that as we do, as we try to reforest, we. I’m just wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that application of what you’re seeing, like, how do you see it influencing adaptation work like this, or even like try and stop the, the default, like, I’m just curious to see how you, that work gets applied.

[00:19:58] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Yeah, sure. So [00:20:00] I think just thinking about the most direct and simple ways. There are these different programs from the UK and let’s say the European Union, for instance, these, uh, I don’t know what was 3 billion trees, but these are kind of reforestation programs that are going on, uh, not only in, in Europe, but also a lot in the tropics.

[00:20:19] Yes. [00:20:20] Uh, and, and, and also you have these programs to some extent are. Incentivizing some commercial companies to do kind of reforestation programs, but by using kind of plantations as well, just one or two species, right? Right. I think just using one or two species that [00:20:40] sometimes are not actually from the local, from the location is quite dangerous.

[00:20:45] Yes. So what we are trying to do here is to bring more tools for this decision making about Which species to plant were in case reforestation is needed. So what kind of characteristics of the species that you are going to select would have to have to actually have an [00:21:00] opportunity as well to survive.

[00:21:01] Right. Because a lot of exactly a lot of the ones that are being used then just basically die after I don’t know one year or two years. Right. So I think that would be kind of the most direct application. And that’s a

[00:21:13] Ben Hurst: difficult thing, right? Because that’s like, that’s not the kind of thing you could figure out without, I would assume without a satellite, like you’d need to be able [00:21:20] to see Map what’s going on everywhere else to be able to know what would work

[00:21:25] Maryam Pasha: Yeah.

[00:21:25] On the scale of it.

[00:21:26] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting.

Using satellite technology for environmental research

[00:21:29] Maryam Pasha: Are you surprised that you’re using satellite technology with this work? Like, I’m just curious to know whether you ever imagined this is kind of how you would be doing this and, and, and what that journey has been like. You

[00:21:39] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: know, that’s [00:21:40] very funny because I remember when I was a child and I would be in a plane, I remember that part.

[00:21:45] And when you look into like through the window, you see. Like the landscape, right? Yeah. And I always wonder like, what, what, what do we have down there? I always wanted to know like, what is down there, what would happen if I actually jump and, and I’m actually scared of height. . Yeah. [00:22:00]

[00:22:01] Ben Hurst: Not literally. Exactly.

[00:22:02] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Uh, and, and so in that sense, I’m not surprised.

[00:22:05] I actually kind of find the link to what I’m doing nowadays. Uh, but if, again, if. To the beginning. If you think about it, you go to a place and you collect the data that you need to try to understand the local context. Mm-hmm . So you measure the tree, you measure the [00:22:20] leaves, you, you send them to the lab and get the chemical composition.

[00:22:24] That’s for 1, 2, 3, 10 trees now. Like, let’s see what is happening elsewhere. Again, you have to build models, collect a lot of data from the field, go to different communities across the tropics, gather your data, do your [00:22:40] statistics, and then think, okay, how can I then put it out no more to the places where I haven’t been?

[00:22:46] What is there is when we use the satellite data to basically predict, make a prediction of what we found for those locations, but across the world, let’s say.

Challenges and strategies in deforestation

[00:22:58] Maryam Pasha: I think you hear a lot about [00:23:00] the reforestation, deforestation, losing the Amazon, trying to get it back, etc. Do you have a sense through this work here in your teams, like, whether we are stopping deforestation, whether forests are coming back, or whether actually, it’s actually still being lost at a really fast pace?

[00:23:18] One of the things [00:23:20] that I’ve read about is that, you know, since the end of the Bolsonaro government in, in Brazil, that there’s been a A slowing of the deforestation, is that real? Can you see that? Are you seeing it in real time?

[00:23:32] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Yes, definitely. I think, I mean, the rate of deforestation to some extent has, uh, has slowed down [00:23:40] for some of these locations.

[00:23:41] For others, for instance, perhaps in some areas in Africa or in Southern Mexico is still kind of in the same pace or even faster. Uh, but I think

[00:23:54] we know this is happening. And we are trying to slow it down. So there is really a [00:24:00] future for these and I think we have to be positive and keep positive about it. We can do something about it.

[00:24:04] Maryam Pasha: Right. I’m curious because I guess I’m wondering, like, what are the things that you’re starting to see contribute to it slowing down versus it speeding up?

[00:24:13] Like is it the governments? Is it the, like, do you, do you, do you analyze those kinds of factors or? [00:24:20]

[00:24:20] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I don’t, per se, I don’t do it, but what I see, I see it is definitely something that governments can push for, like this slowing down of the first station, do something, implement policy, but at the same time, personally, I think it’s about the consumer as well, knowing more about what you are buying, where, what is it coming from.

[00:24:38] Reducing the demand. Exactly. [00:24:40] It’s also, are your products, like if you’re talking about wood certified, so just getting to know a bit more, I know it is difficult for most of us. But actually trying to know where it’s coming from and the history that it has.

[00:24:51] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. I mean, this is probably very much outside your scope, but I’m just curious if, because you’re in this every day for people listening who don’t know this, what are some of the things that [00:25:00] lead to deforestation?

[00:25:01] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Okay.

Impact of poverty on deforestation

[00:25:02] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think one of them is going to be poverty. Okay. Poverty is going to, to lead to the first stage.

[00:25:08] Ben Hurst: Wait, I’m agreeing. And I don’t understand how, why would, why would poverty mean that people would cut more trees down for wood, for For

[00:25:16] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: instance, like I think this applies to several countries. [00:25:20] Again, putting more into the context of Brazil or Mexico is people live in the, in these forested areas.

[00:25:27] Uh, and if they don’t have a way of making money from any other business, they are often faced with the position in which they, they can cut wood. Illegally [00:25:40] to sell, uh, also to illegal buyers, perhaps, right? And this is leading to the frustration. This is happening a lot in Mexico, for instance, even in protected areas.

[00:25:51] These are huge areas, huge countries, uh, in which perhaps policy implementation is not adequate or there’s not enough funding. [00:26:00] Uh, and also there is not enough funding for, for people living in these enough jobs. And this is obviously creating kind of this feedback loop that is quite negative.

[00:26:09] Maryam Pasha: I don’t think we do enough of that joined up thinking, you know, cause of, of these social and economic factors that then lead to [00:26:20] environmental factors, if that makes sense.

[00:26:21] Like, but this idea that, you know, if people need. to live, then they’re going to have to do whatever’s necessary. And actually, in a way, it’s as simple as being like, what can we find? If we address poverty, then we do, we have two wins. People aren’t living in poverty anymore, and we’re protecting the [00:26:40] forest and the environment.

Surprising Discoveries in Tropical Forests

[00:26:42] Maryam Pasha: In your research and the work that you’ve done, what was the most surprising thing that you found?

[00:26:48] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: It was actually very interesting to see that a lot of the areas across the tropics where I work, they’re still quite I could say pristine. I [00:27:00] I didn’t imagine I could still find those areas in which you feel you get into the forest and then you see these huge trees like you cannot see almost the end in the canopy.

[00:27:11] You can you can hug them, but you cannot cover them, you know, so. This was quite surprising is like, Oh, these areas are still, they are [00:27:20] still there, you know?

[00:27:20] Maryam Pasha: And do you go like visit? Do you actually, have you gone and seen some of these rainforests and areas that you’ve been also photographing?

[00:27:28] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I’ve been, I’ve been, I’ve been in several of them, several countries.

[00:27:31] So Mexico, Brazil, Colombia with all with local collaborators. Uh, um, we have been even in Chile a bit outside of the tropics, but [00:27:40] it’s still like. Fantastic for us in Africa. We have been a lot in Ghana. We work quite strongly and a lot in Ghana, Gabon, Malaysia in Asia as well, Rwanda, so all over the place.

[00:27:53] And you still can find these very nice locations. Very nice. conserved forests full of [00:28:00] biodiversity across the these tropical continents. Oh, that’s good. So I would say like, like, try, let’s try to actually focus also in these areas, conserving these areas without forgetting also kind of the ones that need more kind of or care.

[00:28:14] That’s

[00:28:15] Maryam Pasha: beautiful.

[00:28:16] Ben Hurst: Of those. areas that you’ve mentioned, how [00:28:20] many of them are reaching capacity? Like how, because there is part of this that we need to be creating more forests actively or is nature just gonna kind of Sort itself out. We don’t need to worry about it that much.

[00:28:34] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: No, I think that’s that’s a great question.

Reforestation and conservation efforts

[00:28:36] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think we have to be active and do [00:28:40] something about it. Kind of a stop this, for instance, the forestation and forest degradation. Again, this comes into policy as well. Poverty reduction. But at the same time, if you think about the extent right of this forest, there is only so much that we can do actively.

[00:28:58] And there’s only so much money [00:29:00] that we can actually put. into these programs, right? So one of the ideas that has been hugely discussed is yes, let’s continue actually investing a lot in this actively, but let’s also protect and in some areas perhaps let them be. Let them recover by themselves, take away the pressure, [00:29:20] right?

[00:29:20] So that they can do

[00:29:22] Ben Hurst: stuff to it and just let it, yeah, just stop it from being interfered with.

[00:29:25] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Exactly. Okay. And it is going to be easier if in those locations that are degraded that you have still kind of some pockets of biodiversity that can help the system recover. But perhaps you don’t have anything left.

[00:29:39] then is when you have [00:29:40] to be more active, right? Act in for those locations.

[00:29:42] Ben Hurst: So interesting. And I feel, I feel like over the, over the time that we’ve been doing this podcast, I’ve learned little bits and pieces about what it means to like reforest an area. So does this look like in terms of practical steps, not practical steps for someone like me, but practical steps for the scientists, for the people that are doing this work?[00:30:00]

[00:30:00] Does that mean introducing, like you mentioned new, uh, like evolution of plants or mutation of of characteristics of plants that you can introduce to an area or are we talking about introducing new animals? Do I need to like, do we need to put like new wolves or something into an area? So that because I know that sometimes it’s [00:30:20] not necessarily the thing that you immediately think.

[00:30:23] You need to change that needs to change. Do you have any idea of like what things can you tell that from a satellite, like which animals need to be placed in which areas or which plants we need to put in a specific place?

[00:30:35] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think from the satellite, it’s easier to see the plants, like the big, the big plants, [00:30:40] uh, that are in a, in a given area.

[00:30:42] But, but coming back to the point about which kind of plants, if we have to bring new species, let’s say to a location, I would say that. Is, uh, at, at this stage, it would be better to use some of the plants, some of the species that you have in the, in the location, in the surroundings because it means that to some [00:31:00] extent they are kind of adapting or trying to still be there.

[00:31:03] They are fighting, right? Uh, so let’s not try to introduce kind of new species from other locations. I would say, yeah, just use what you have in there. Select the ones that are doing best. Uh, but also if you talk about animals and they are very important, uh, very important for dispersal, for instance, [00:31:20] there are many tree species that, that need animals to disperse the seeds.

[00:31:25] Right. And in areas, for instance, in the Amazon, in which you have a lot of defoundation, then this is becoming an issue because the tree may be there and the seed may be there, but they don’t have a way to go to a location to travel away.

[00:31:38] Maryam Pasha: So I know how this [00:31:40] happens. But I want you to tell Ben how this happens, because I don’t think, do you know how an animal disperses the seed?

[00:31:45] It’s doo

[00:31:45] Ben Hurst: doo, right? They poop. They poop. Yeah. They eat it and they poop it. They take it, yeah. And then they literally carry it to another place. So then all of them, yeah. Some of us

[00:31:55] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: just get it stuck into the food. Sorry,

[00:31:58] Ben Hurst: sorry everyone. Listen, it doesn’t [00:32:00] have to be that crude all the time. No, the one that you mentioned is very important as well.

[00:32:03] Maryam Pasha: These are the tape years.

[00:32:05] Ben Hurst: Yeah. . . So what, what does it look like? Like if you, if we start thinking 10 to 20 years in the future, because we are at, like, in my mind, when we’re having climate conversations, we’re at crisis point and we are close to [00:32:20] irreparable damage. What does it look like 10 years into the future?

[00:32:25] 20. When is that? 20, 35.

[00:32:27] Maryam Pasha: 20. 35 years. 20,

[00:32:28] Ben Hurst: 35.

[00:32:29] Maryam Pasha: No, five years into the future. 2030.

[00:32:32] Ben Hurst: Oh, yeah. Five years into the future. What does it look like? No, 10 years. Anyway, maths. But what does it look like in the future? If this [00:32:40] goes well, if your work carries on going well, what, what is your hope for what the world looks like?

[00:32:47] Or 10 years,

[00:32:49] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: 20 years?

[00:32:50] Ben Hurst: Give us, give us

[00:32:51] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: three, five, 10, 20. No, I think, I think what we, what I would expect to see more is these [00:33:00] Policy that is evidence based And this means then the application of this knowledge that we are gathering at the different universities across the world with the different Research that is going on being applied into these areas specifically and this means then again Thinking about if you are nowadays, now, tomorrow or in the next month, [00:33:20] planning a reforestation action in a given location and start using that data that all scientists are putting out there to actually take action in the field.

[00:33:29] I would like to see, obviously, less poverty, more support for the local communities as well that live actually in these locations and that are the primary users of [00:33:40] these tropical forests, for instance. Uh, so I would that’s what I would like to see more in the next five to ten years If you think about what kind of forest we may have in the next 10 years I think that’s quite short term because if you think of a tree when it is planted Then it takes a long time several years to actually reach Two, three [00:34:00] meters, four meters, it depends where they, what they are, but perhaps in the next 50 years, we are going to see perhaps some changes also in the forest, in the composition of species they have.

[00:34:12] And hopefully, forests are better adapted to these new environmental conditions.

Understanding forest health via satellite imagery

[00:34:19] Maryam Pasha: When you’re looking at [00:34:20] a satellite image of a forest, how can you tell if something is healthy, if something is degraded, like what would I be seeing?

[00:34:27] What are the markers?

[00:34:28] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Right. Oh, that’s, that’s very important. So when you just transport yourself to these Google Maps.

[00:34:33] Maryam Pasha: Yes. I’ve got Google Maps.

[00:34:37] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: So when you zoom in and then you [00:34:40] have no forest, you just see the bare ground. Like it can be just kind of brownish. There are no trees. You can see that you can see where you have grasses as well. You can see also where you have the trees, you see the canopies. And there is, there are some techniques that you can actually click into one of the pixels and then you see what we call a [00:35:00] spectral signature.

[00:35:02] And the spectra is basically energy that is reflected from the surface. So that when you see the signature, it’s basically telling you, it can tell you many different things. It can tell, help you identify, for instance, if it is really, really brown, perhaps it is a tree. That is [00:35:20] quite unhealthy, if it is very, very green, then it may mean that he’s doing a lot of photosynthesis.

[00:35:26] So perhaps it’s quite healthy, but that also helps us identify different species, because different species have kind of different signatures. And so you, when you start looking about, Oh, where are [00:35:40] these species distributed? Exactly. So you can start gathering a lot of these signatures. And see how many different species you have and it works kind of the same way when you think about The nutrients composition how much nitrogen they have how much phosphorus they have They also, we can also analyze that, that through the [00:36:00] spectral signature that they have.

Rewilding and its importance

[00:36:01] Maryam Pasha: So in the UK, we talk a lot about rewilding. For people who are familiar with rewilding, how does, how can that help them understand what you’re talking about? Like, is there an anything similar or analogous to, to that kind of concept?

[00:36:14] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: I think it’s just bringing nature back where it used to be. Uh, and rewilding [00:36:20] has a huge impact, for instance, when I was talking about this seed dispersal.

[00:36:23] Right. Okay. And this rewilding is, is happening here in the UK. Actually, we have the Leverhulme Center for Nature Recovery, in which a lot of analysis about rewilding, what kind of species are missing where we’re working here in the UK. And we’re working, [00:36:40] working also in Ghana. Just thinking about first.

[00:36:43] What kind of animals need to come back? Yeah. What are the species that we used to have in here? That are not here anymore and what kind of functions they used to do. So, uh, it’s difficult, again, to see kind of these small animals, uh, with, [00:37:00] with satellites, but we can see like elephants,

[00:37:04] zebras.

[00:37:05] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: And so they are very important, important species also in the, in the, across the tropics.

[00:37:11] Maryam Pasha: Is there anywhere people can go and actually see some of the images that you’re looking at, like of, of the forests or any of this? Just like if people were really interested. [00:37:20]

[00:37:21] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Uh, yes. I mean that definitely just go to Google Maps. Google Maps is one of the most obvious ones, and they, and there are, there are the site, the websites of the European Space Agency.

[00:37:31] Great. They have fantastic images. They can just, if you just Google European Space Agency,

[00:37:36] Maryam Pasha: great

[00:37:37] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Sentinel, two images.

[00:37:39] Maryam Pasha: Sentinel 2 [00:37:40] images. We’ll put that in the show notes. So if anyone really wants to have a look, because I want to go look at some forests.

Practical steps for supporting biodiversity

[00:37:44] Ben Hurst: Well, this is my question actually, is if, if I care, like if I’m somebody, so imagine it’s like a hundred thousand people like me who don’t have any scientific knowledge or background in this.

[00:37:57] Like, what do you, what [00:38:00] What can the average layperson do with this information? Like, how do you, if you care about biodiversity or you care about rewilding or you care about any of that kind of stuff, what is a, uh, practical step? Are there any practical steps that a person can take to like, be involved or support?

[00:38:16] Is it like planting stuff in your garden? Well, I, I’m, [00:38:20] I’m big on garden. We ask you this. We, Ben, ask you need context. I start a garden. Everybody, we’re

[00:38:24] Maryam Pasha: better ask this context because one of our previous guests told him to start a garden. Yeah,

[00:38:27] Ben Hurst: right. I’m like, how should I start my garden? Every episode I’m trying to build information on starting a garden, but I guess is a

[00:38:33] Maryam Pasha: good question like, is.

[00:38:35] Is this what you said before about us as consumers? Or is there, is there other ways that [00:38:40] we, as people not working in this, take this information and knowledge?

[00:38:43] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Yes. Yeah, definitely. I think one of the things you can do, just join a local group as well. There are a lot of local groups about trying to protect local biodiversity.

[00:38:53] Uh, join about like basically exploring the surrounding areas. They help in the [00:39:00] citizen science projects as well that come out quite frequently as well. Recently, there was one about, in this case, water quality. Okay. All across the UK, people joined it, collected water from the different rivers and send it back to this organization that then made the chemical analysis and gave you insights about.

[00:39:17] How clean your water is, there is [00:39:20] also some of these, yeah, I don’t need to know. Yeah. Good point. So just join this. I would say this is one very practical one. Just join also like the local groups. Yeah,

[00:39:32] Ben Hurst: I like that.

Exciting new technologies in environmental research

[00:39:32] Maryam Pasha: Is there any other technology that you’ve kind of see coming on the horizon for your work that really excites you?

[00:39:39] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Yeah, [00:39:40] definitely. So, uh, within the satellite, so we have this, uh, remote sensing. Remote sensing includes not only satellite, but something kind of that can tell you information without basically touching it, right? And one of those is also camera traps. For instance, these cameras that people put, researchers put in the forest, and they take a picture when something moves.

[00:39:59] And it [00:40:00] can be a Jaguar, it can be a tape or something amazing. Uh, but also these kind of audio, audio modes or yeah, kind of audio recorders that you also put in the, in the forest, and you leave it in there for days or weeks and then you bring it to your computer. You have AI models now that can help you [00:40:20] identify what is, what potential species it is, of what, what kind of animal.

[00:40:24] Maryam Pasha: This has been a very cool conversation.

Climate Confessions and final thoughts

[00:40:27] Ben Hurst: And now, it’s time for our climate confessions. Let’s fess up to the bad habits we just can’t kick.

[00:40:38] Maryam Pasha: So we have been, we’ve [00:40:40] confessed over a hundred confessions each. It’s humiliating. It’s

[00:40:42] Ben Hurst: humiliating.

[00:40:43] Maryam Pasha: Um, so we’re trying to figure it out. Do you have one? I feel

[00:40:46] Ben Hurst: like, I feel like it’s something to do with ice cream.

[00:40:48] I feel, do you know what I realised the other day? I don’t know if this will count, but I realise that people are boycotting stuff. And I don’t boycott anything like I don’t, and maybe Starbucks, I don’t know, shout out to Starbucks boycotting you. [00:41:00] Um, but I feel like there’s gotta be something that I can be changing in my consumption that would be helping rather than hindering the situation.

[00:41:08] I think that’s probably the confession is I don’t even pay enough attention to what I’m consuming to know what the impact of the items I use like regularly day to day use [00:41:20] like whether my, Washing up liquid is good or bad, or my toilet roll is good or bad. And I, I have a suspicion. We learn

[00:41:27] Maryam Pasha: about the pizza boxes coming from ancient trees.

[00:41:30] Um, and so I’m, I’m

[00:41:31] Ben Hurst: wondering, but I’ll do some research and I’ll find out for the next episode what it is that I’m doing specifically so that I can [00:41:40] confess again.

[00:41:42] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: Something actually that I’ve, I’ve haven’t done. What I should be doing, which is I haven’t really participated much in this March for them, March for the Environment Protest that came, but also the other one that I’ve been doing that I shouldn’t be doing so much, perhaps is.

[00:41:59] [00:42:00] I shouldn’t be eating so much meat. The meat

[00:42:02] Maryam Pasha: is, yeah, we just had chicken. Yeah,

[00:42:05] Ben Hurst: we just had delicious. Yeah. Ten wins. Yeah,

[00:42:09] Maryam Pasha: because obviously also I guess you see how the forests are being cut down for cattle farming, right? Exactly.

[00:42:16] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:18] Maryam Pasha: Um, my one [00:42:20] is going to get, my one’s going to get boring. My one’s going to get boring as this goes on.

[00:42:25] I now have a baby. And what I realized is that. In the past where I had the time and energy to think carefully about the things I’m buying. Sometimes you’re just like, give me this thing, you know, like, so, you know, and so, [00:42:40] although for myself, I kind of completely avoid fast fashion. I do realize that, um, they just grow so fast, but you know, I will say that I have lots of friends who have babies.

[00:42:51] So I’ve gotten lots of secondhand stuff, but I still, you still think, Oh, let me just buy like, Ten more of those vests in case I need you do because [00:43:00] as you saw over lunch, yeah, he like throws up on everything Yeah, yeah, and

[00:43:04] Ben Hurst: he’s doubled in size So I definitely

[00:43:07] Maryam Pasha: think that’s my climate confession is that when you’re tired as a parent you definitely think I don’t have time for this I need sleep.

[00:43:14] So that’s, that’s my climate confession. Thank you so much. Thank

[00:43:17] Ben Hurst: you, man. This was

[00:43:19] Maryam Pasha: really awesome. [00:43:20] Thank you for letting us be your first podcast. Excellent. And we will link to a lot of things we talked about in the show so people can find your work and find some of the stuff we were talking about. But thank you again.

[00:43:33] Jesús Aguirre Gutiérrez: No, fantastic. Thank you for having me. Taking the time, actually.

[00:43:36] Ben Hurst: You are so welcome. And remember, stay curious. [00:43:40] Thank you for joining us this week. We really hope you enjoyed this episode.

[00:43:45] Maryam Pasha: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure you get next week’s release.

[00:43:49] Ben Hurst: We are now officially crowdsourcing Climate Confession, so please leave yours in the ratings and the review section, and we’ll shout out for you next And shout [00:44:00] out to our fabulous team behind the pod.

[00:44:03] Maryam Pasha: This episode was produced by Josie Colter. Artwork designed by Rebecca Menzies.

[00:44:07] Ben Hurst: Curation by Maryam Pasha.

[00:44:09] Maryam Pasha: Mixed and engineered by Ben Beheshty.

[00:44:12] Ben Hurst: Music also by Ben Beheshty. Presented by Ben Hurst and Maryam Pasha. Remember, stay [00:44:20] curious.