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A solar panel in Shanghai and a wind turbine in Brasília might sound worlds apart, but the people installing renewables around the globe are breaking similar barriers and achieving the same wins: cheaper bills, cleaner energy, and better jobs! After last week’s trip to Oxfordshire’s Westmill Solar and Wind Farm, TEDxLondon’s Deesha Chandra sits down with three global renewable energy leaders to compare and contrast energy independence lessons from around the world. Featuring: Victoria Santos from Brazil’s Institute for Climate and Society, Dr. Yongping Zhang from Energy Foundation China, and Sahele Fekede from the Africa Climate Foundation. Tune in to hear how local clean energy is going global, from Brazil to China and Ethiopia. Helping bring these people together is ReNew2030, building community to share learnings and spread the renewable from local to international.
Listen to the Westmill episode on Climate Curious: https://tedxlondon.com/podcasts/how-a-community-can-build-its-own-renewable-energy-with-westmill-energy/
Learn more about ReNew2030: https://renew2030.org/
Learn more about Westmill Energy: https://westmillenergy.coop/about/our-story/
Institute for Climate and Society: https://climaesociedade.org/en/who-we-are/
The Energy Foundation: https://www.efchina.org/
African Climate Foundation: https://africanclimatefoundation.org/about-us/
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper
00:00 Intro
01:18 Meet Victoria Santos
01:37 Brazil lessons from Westmill
04:30 Co-ops and impact tracking
06:46 Brazil renewable boom
08:41 Why progress can reverse
11:00 Meet Sehele Fekede
11:58 Energy access and finance hurdles
14:02 Solar irrigation in Senegal
16:08 Women and solar benefits
17:32 Scaling solar across africa
18:30 Renewables are affordable now
19:31 China village collective model
21:42 Financing and scalability hurdles
23:30 Proving local value
24:52 Rooftop solar income story
27:24 China renewables and distributed solar
29:12 Wrap up And credits
[00:00:00] Intro
[00:00:00] Ben Hurst: This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate change
[00:00:11] Maryam Pasha: in this week’s Climate Curious. We’re heading back to part two of our [00:00:15] Oxfordshire Westmill Solar and Wind Farm, but this time with an international twist. Last week’s quickie had our own Deesha Chandra delving into how powerful locally built.
[00:00:24] And locally owned clean energy creation can be. But whilst we were there, we also met some incredible [00:00:30] renewable energy leaders from all around the world. From Brazil, we met Victoria Santos from Brazil’s Institute for Climate and Society. Representing Ethiopia was Sahale fare from the African Climate Foundation.
[00:00:42] And from China, we met Zhang Yongpingng [00:00:45] from the Energy Foundation, China’s clean power programme tune in to get a sense of how a solar panel in Shanghai might differ to a wind turbine in Brasilia. But after all, are winning the same victories for local communities, cheaper bills, cleaner energy, and [00:01:00] better jobs on how community owned renewable energy is gaining grassroots momentum all around the world and the lessons learned across diverse regions and cultures.
[00:01:09] Here’s Deesha, Victoria, Sehele, and Zhang. Stay curious.[00:01:15]
[00:01:18] Meet Victoria Brazil
[00:01:18] Deesha Chandra: Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Uh, to start, would, would you please introduce yourself to our audience and, and what you do?
[00:01:24] Victoria Santos: Okay. Uh, I’m Victoria. I am from Brazil. Uh, I work at the [00:01:30] Institute for Climate and Society, and currently I am responsible for the energy and industry transition agendas.
[00:01:37] Yeah.
[00:01:37] Brazil Lessons From Westmill
[00:01:37] Deesha Chandra: So we all went to the farm today and I was just wondering about how, what your reactions are. Mm-hmm. Um, in terms of like the challenges they’re [00:01:45] facing, what that. What you are seeing in your context as well in Brazil. Mm-hmm. Are there any, I guess, similarities, differences? We’d love to hear a bit more about that.
[00:01:53] Victoria Santos: Well, first of all, for me it was really surprising to see, uh, farm, uh, [00:02:00] community energy, uh, with wind. So, uh, we are very much used to systems based on solar, solar pv. Mm-hmm. So it was the first thing that was something that we can think about. Mm-hmm. But I think [00:02:15] in terms of learning and things that we can take, uh, home, uh, is the opportunity of possibility to have feasible projects owned by communities.
[00:02:28] And below [00:02:30] the commercial optimal, if I would say, ’cause currently there is, uh, a challenge with the implementation of, uh, utility scale projects because they are in Brazil, some of them are in [00:02:45] very ecological and social sensitive areas.
[00:02:47] Deesha Chandra: Right? Okay.
[00:02:48] Victoria Santos: So the, the most, the most, uh, how can I say the those with most of return of in on investment.
[00:02:56] So hearing from the [00:03:00] very entrepreneur, the person that started this here, uh, at West Mill, and that they chose not to use the optimal project in commercial, in a commercial perspective, it was something, oh. We [00:03:15] can also explore these opportunities, uh, so that also the community would also better engage because currently there is some restriction or some resistance on with some communities based on the [00:03:30] liabilities of pest projects.
[00:03:32] Deesha Chandra: Okay.
[00:03:32] Victoria Santos: So having the opportunity of, okay, we can rethink and even if it’s not being the optimal it can. Build some income, some extra income for the community, and community can own this. Right. [00:03:45] So this was the second and the third, I would say that it was the model under which the system, uh, the community has been built.
[00:03:53] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Mm-hmm.
[00:03:54] Victoria Santos: It also brings, uh, some, uh. Ideas, uh, [00:04:00] because he was, he was the, the one who got the idea of how to do this and bring in the community afterwards. Mm-hmm. So he did all the studies and everything, and then he said, oh, this is huge. So I will need [00:04:15] some support. But I also, since this is going to be something huge, I don’t want to own this myself.
[00:04:21] I want to bring other people from the surroundings together. So this also brings. Other perspectives on how to build this. [00:04:30] Yeah.
[00:04:30] Co-ops And Impact Tracking
[00:04:30] Deesha Chandra: And are, are there examples in, in, I guess the programmes or projects that you are funding or working with that, that you are seeing like the uptake of cooperative models for renewable energy
[00:04:41] Victoria Santos: as well?
[00:04:42] Yes. Okay. Yes. So we, [00:04:45] at XX is the Institute for Climate Society. This is how we call it.
[00:04:48] Deesha Chandra: Right.
[00:04:49] Victoria Santos: We have been supporting different models. Yeah. For the deployment of Community Energy. Most of them, uh. Not to say all of them in [00:05:00] the, in the work that we do, they are something that is, uh, is spurred by our partners.
[00:05:07] So what happens is that, uh, we have a set of partners that work with social [00:05:15] issues
[00:05:15] Deesha Chandra: mm-hmm.
[00:05:16] Victoria Santos: And see the needs for better energy, quality, energy access. And they started exploring under a climate, economic food [00:05:30] security nexus.
[00:05:30] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:31] Victoria Santos: And also gender emancipation, for instance, nexus. Yeah. And, and, and they started explos.
[00:05:37] So let’s going to see what are the kind of effects if we support the deployment of a system at diff different sets of [00:05:45] communities or in the families, or with the association or with a broader. Community, like larger scale set and what are the impacts? So what we have been, uh, supporting this system is understand and supporting the deployment of, uh, [00:06:00] MRV or some kind of, uh, assessment model.
[00:06:02] Mm-hmm. Assessment, uh, methodologies to understand the impact.
[00:06:05] Deesha Chandra: Yeah.
[00:06:06] Victoria Santos: And also, uh, there are some, some other. Uh, experiences that have been more spontaneous. And what [00:06:15] we are doing is having all these, not all, but this ecosystem that is surrounding X.
[00:06:22] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:23] Victoria Santos: So we are having them to cooperate and learn from each other so that we can strengthen their [00:06:30] operation and, and also based on these different experiences.
[00:06:34] We can connect with the financial sector. Mm-hmm. Which is, uh, what we are doing now with the financial sector, but also with other kind of social and entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship [00:06:45] services that we have in Brazil.
[00:06:46] Brazil Renewable Boom
[00:06:46] Deesha Chandra: What is the one thing that you wish everybody knew about renewables in Brazil?
[00:06:51] Victoria Santos: Wow. This is a great question.
[00:06:53] Thank you for doing this question. So. What I would like everyone to know is that [00:07:00] Brazil is a land of opportunities in terms of energy transition.
[00:07:03] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:03] Victoria Santos: In the past 15 years, uh, 15 to almost 20 years, Brazil has, has gone from nothing. To having [00:07:15] 92% of, it’s almost 90, 80, 80% of it, it’s, uh, power capacity based on renewables.
[00:07:22] Wow. Really? Hydro solar and, and wind. And we have, uh, further space for expansion [00:07:30] currently.
[00:07:30] Deesha Chandra: Yeah, sure.
[00:07:31] Victoria Santos: So I would, I would like that everyone would know that. That, that’s
[00:07:35] Deesha Chandra: massive.
[00:07:36] Victoria Santos: I see. Yes. This is massive. This is massive. We are talking about a country with, with over 200 million people. Mm-hmm. If we in a continental scale.
[00:07:44] So [00:07:45] this is really massive. We have been pretty successful and now we need to advance and for us to advance, we need to connect. Renewable expansion to prosperity, to social and economic development [00:08:00] so that it can surpass the idea that fossil are a source of development of a, a source of high income.
[00:08:07] Right? So this is where our efforts are, and we are betting on. This smaller scale, community scale system. Mm-hmm. [00:08:15] Because we need to take care of people in the field. Mm-hmm. But also in the industrial capacity, the green industrialization based on this, uh, renewable energy capacity that we already have, but the capacity that we can.
[00:08:28] Expand further. Right? [00:08:30] So this is where we are really focusing at, and this is what I would like everyone to know versus a few of opportunities, a territory of opportunities in the renewable energy agenda. Yeah.
[00:08:40] Deesha Chandra: That’s amazing.
[00:08:41] Victoria Santos: Yeah.
[00:08:41] Why Progress Can Reverse
[00:08:41] Deesha Chandra: I also find it’s fascinating that like you guys have such a [00:08:45] high percentage.
[00:08:45] Mm-hmm. So does that 12. Actually feel like a threat at all because you’ve already feel, I feel like you’ve passed that tipping point where
[00:08:53] Victoria Santos: this is a threat. Really. You are so amazing. Thank you so much. Because you do really good questions. This is a threat. This is [00:09:00] also another thing that I would like everyone to know.
[00:09:03] It’s not an irreversible process.
[00:09:05] Deesha Chandra: Right?
[00:09:06] Victoria Santos: So we have achieved this peak. Mm-hmm. Okay. And now we see that there is, uh, lots of, uh, pressure, [00:09:15] actually we’re seeing policies.
[00:09:17] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:18] Victoria Santos: And the, the less auctions on capacity, they have been based on thermal, fossil thermal gas, Uhhuh gas. Fossil gas, yes. And coal. Let’s see.
[00:09:27] Right. So it’s not an [00:09:30] irreversible process. So we really under the risk of seeing, uh, decarbonization of Brazil power grid, for instance.
[00:09:38] Deesha Chandra: Wow.
[00:09:38] Victoria Santos: So this is why we need to provide the signals that the future. Of [00:09:45] development and prosperity in Brazil is based on renewables. Mm-hmm. And we need to do this in the countryside also, improving the, improving the process for farming, having electrical machines.
[00:09:57] So, you know, developing the, the, the, the [00:10:00] rural areas. Mm-hmm. But also bringing the energy intensive industries to, to invest and produce in, uh, this territory. We, where we have. Over almost 90% of renewable energy, we can [00:10:15] even expend expand further without these signals. It’s hard to, to. Uh, to go to a leadership, you know, a local leadership that, that depends on the, on the income from taxes for [00:10:30] fossil fuel commercialisation, for instance.
[00:10:32] Mm-hmm. And say, look, you should bet on renewables because. This is better,
[00:10:37] Deesha Chandra: right?
[00:10:38] Victoria Santos: They do not understand this. Ah, it’s better for the climate. No, they understand, oh, it’s better because you have, uh, [00:10:45] uh, a local income. Mm-hmm. You have quality jobs, you have new industries coming. You have an increase in the dynamicity of the economy of these territories.
[00:10:55] So this is what we need to. Right. Yeah.
[00:10:57] Deesha Chandra: That’s amazing. Yeah. [00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Meet Sehele Fekede
[00:11:00] Sehele Fekede: So I am sa I am, uh, working for the African Climate Foundation currently as the programme manager for Energy Access and Transitions there. The African Climate Foundation is a part of a coalition of foundations that set up the [00:11:15] Renew 2030 Coalition.
[00:11:16] Uh, together we are, uh, promoting, uh, the. Scaling up of the implementation of renewable energy across the world with the number of, uh, set targets by 20 to achieve by 2030. So as African Climate [00:11:30] Foundation, we are working towards, uh, continuing towards those, those targets at the same time meeting, uh, some of the, the climate and development, sustainable development goals on the continent of Africa.
[00:11:41] Uh, we are active, uh, in a number of part [00:11:45] countries particularly, but, uh, especially, uh, I mean. To begin with South Africa, then Nigeria and Senegal, and now we’re expanding our, uh, footprint across, uh, the continent. We’re expanding into a number of, about half a dozen countries ultimately.
[00:11:58] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:58] Energy Access And Finance Hurdles
[00:11:58] Sehele Fekede: Our, uh, kind [00:12:00] of mission is, uh, is actually to help, uh, the continent achieve energy access.
[00:12:05] Uh, if you know, uh, currently as stands about, half of Africans still do not have access to energy of any sort.
[00:12:13] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:13] Sehele Fekede: The cost of capital in [00:12:15] Africa is. Anywhere between twice to five times the capital cost of, uh, finance elsewhere. Wow. In the world. So that’s the big challenge.
[00:12:25] Deesha Chandra: And that means the, that’s the cost of borrowing that
[00:12:27] Sehele Fekede: as well.
[00:12:27] Yeah,
[00:12:27] exactly. Exactly.
[00:12:28] Deesha Chandra: So it’s been like that, that
[00:12:28] Sehele Fekede: it is very [00:12:30] expensive.
[00:12:30] Deesha Chandra: Made more expensive.
[00:12:30] Sehele Fekede: Yes, indeed. So it’s, uh, in a, in a d in a world of its own when it comes to capital, cost of capital for doing business in general. Yeah. But also for promoting renewable energy in Africa. So what we’re trying to add to kind of, um, [00:12:45] support is, uh, the uptake.
[00:12:47] I mean, uh, support with governments, with, uh, promoting sustainable finance, uh, using various mechanisms of tools that are available.
[00:12:56] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:56] Sehele Fekede: Uh, as a foundation, for example, we have been, uh, supporting [00:13:00] governments develop dedicated funds that would, uh, help, uh, investments in renewable energy and energy efficiency in a number of countries.
[00:13:07] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Right.
[00:13:07] Sehele Fekede: I must make one point clear here. Africa is a, a huge continent. Mm-hmm. There are many countries there. Yeah. Some countries are on a different place in that [00:13:15] trajectory. So for example, if you take South Africa, it’s already, uh, quite a well developed, uh, energy system. It has, uh, conventional energy system quite well developed, but.
[00:13:23] Based on, uh, coal and, uh, fossil fuel generation. So,
[00:13:27] Deesha Chandra: but still facing their own challenges?
[00:13:28] Sehele Fekede: Yes. In
[00:13:29] Deesha Chandra: terms of [00:13:30] supply,
[00:13:30] Sehele Fekede: absolutely. Consistency. So as, uh, there is, uh, problems with supply consistency. They have experienced a lot of, uh, load shedding over the past 10 years or so. Yeah. So there it’s uh, uh, it’s an issue of affordability, equity, [00:13:45] and, uh, reliability of supply.
[00:13:46] Mm-hmm. And at the same time, moving away from coal based power tension towards one that’s renewable, energy focused. Whereas in other parts of the continent, it’s actually having the first. Raw access to, uh, yeah. [00:14:00] Energy. Yeah. That’s a big challenge. Yeah.
[00:14:02] Solar Irrigation In Senegal
[00:14:02] Deesha Chandra: So we’re really interested to hear about how this is affecting people on a daily basis.
[00:14:06] Do, do you have any stories of that you know, that you’ll be happy to share around how it’s affecting EV people on in their daily lives?
[00:14:13] Sehele Fekede: I can speak [00:14:15] of a particular example. For example, in Senegal we are supporting women and youth based, uh, agro business
[00:14:22] Deesha Chandra: Uhhuh.
[00:14:23] Sehele Fekede: Uh, we are supporting them a secure, uh, solar based Deion systems.
[00:14:28] And we are, we’re actually [00:14:30] testing that business model based on that particular area. So definitely, I mean, uh. Once you have, uh, solar, I mean, for example, in that particular case, solar based irrigation, uhhuh actually improves productivity and improves [00:14:45] also the income of, uh, uh, the people involved in this case.
[00:14:49] Uh, the particular focus being, uh, women and youth. So
[00:14:52] Dr. Yongping Zhang: yeah,
[00:14:53] Sehele Fekede: definitely it, uh, it is one way of making, uh, rural businesses more resilient. Resilient to [00:15:00] everything includes the climate change, Uhhuh. Uh, with, um, uh, most 90% of African agriculture being based on rain rained agriculture, which is actually very exposed to Oh, 90%.
[00:15:13] 90%, yeah. Wow. Exposed to [00:15:15] climate, uh, change and, uh, it’s, uh, consequences.
[00:15:17] Sehele Fekede: So, uh, promotion of rural water, pumping based, uh, ag agribusiness business is actually something which. Which can be used as an anchor
[00:15:25] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Yeah.
[00:15:26] Sehele Fekede: Uh, in communities, uh, to increase productivity. Yes, exactly. And you can [00:15:30] also build other business on the back of it.
[00:15:31] Okay. Quite often, uh, the challenge in deep rural areas is there isn’t enough demand to kind of bring, uh, large scale investments. So
[00:15:40] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Right.
[00:15:40] Sehele Fekede: Having this kinds of agri businesses as an anchor business in those [00:15:45] areas is actually, uh, kind of has double purpose one, increase the productivity of the local economy, but also on the back of it, you can also actualize, uh.
[00:15:54] Electricity access. Uh, yeah. Making, uh, the process access more, uh, affordable.
[00:15:59] Deesha Chandra: [00:16:00] Right.
[00:16:00] Sehele Fekede: Yeah. So yeah, this kind of, uh, initiatives with, uh, double benefits, uh, multiple benefits are actually the way to go nowadays. Right.
[00:16:08] Women And Solar Benefits
[00:16:08] Deesha Chandra: And is there a additional benefit for women as well, like being able to
[00:16:12] Sehele Fekede: access? Yes. So what happens is, uh, [00:16:15] they, uh, quite often, uh, traditionally the burden of provision of energy, traditional energy, energy in any.
[00:16:22] Rural community lies on women. So they have to connect the firewood. Right? Okay. They have to prepare the dunk cake, right, which is [00:16:30] sometimes used as a source of energy. Uh, it takes multiple hours off their days. And also it exposes them, you know, um, to inhaling, uh, all those, uh, fumes when they burn them in their, uh, kitchen.
[00:16:42] So the switch to solar [00:16:45] based productive systems as well as, uh, domestic, uh, electricity provision actually elevates all this, uh, additional, uh, all this historical burden mm-hmm. On woman of own woman of this, uh, particular society. So life changing, that is one very solid and, uh, [00:17:00] very critical goal to achieve that is hell’s.
[00:17:03] And, uh, more income actually for society. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, when women have access to more income, actually the whole society benefits. So with those, uh, for example, uh, solar pump is the agriculture [00:17:15] systems. Now an area or a, a farming village that used to have only one crop per year, now can have two times or three times more.
[00:17:23] That is that kind of economic gain gains and benefits that we we’re trying to, we’re already seeing, uh, yeah. Uh, on the [00:17:30] ground. Yeah.
[00:17:30] Deesha Chandra: That’s amazing. Yeah.
[00:17:32] Scaling Solar Across Africa
[00:17:32] Sehele Fekede: Africa is already one of the regions that is, uh, importing very large quantities of solar PB in the last two to three years. Right. Uh, all the data points on this, uh, in this aspect actually are very [00:17:45] encouraging.
[00:17:45] So it’s already happening. So I see, uh, our role actually as trying to actually speed it up even faster. Uh, spread it out even wider, uh, make it more inclusive, address, uh, the needs of, uh, those, [00:18:00] um, vulnerable and, uh, low income households and, uh, members of the community. So it is make it more just, yeah. Not just replicate the history with, you know, we have with the conventional fossil based energy systems.
[00:18:13] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Yeah.
[00:18:13] Sehele Fekede: Not just replicate the [00:18:15] same system here, but actually use this paradigm change as an opportunity, a historical approach once in a century. Yeah. Opportunity to actually make the whole system fair, more affordable, and uh, yeah, cleaner and greener too.
[00:18:29] Deesha Chandra: That’s amazing. [00:18:30]
[00:18:30] Sehele Fekede: Yeah.
[00:18:30] Renewables Are Affordable Now
[00:18:30] Sehele Fekede: Right now, in 2026. Renewable energy is quite affordable.
[00:18:34] Mm-hmm. People have this thoughts that, uh, solar panel, so it’s very expensive. It’s for rich households or maybe for big business, orderly, but no, uh, it is very [00:18:45] modular. You can start off from a little kit that can light only to three bulbs and then you can, uh, expand it. To use even electric stoves and other appliance.
[00:18:54] So I mean this one of the message which we actually promote in the geographies we work in. So I would like to [00:19:00] people to understand and uh, to understand that the basics, uh, have changed substantially in the last 10, 15 years. Renewable energy actually now affordable. And they should. As they should. Uh, if it’s not, so it’s usually due to, [00:19:15] um, not the right policies and incentives being in place.
[00:19:19] So that’s where the need, we need to make a push so that, uh, people can understand it’s affordable and then can start, uh, procuring it and getting the benefit of it. Yeah.[00:19:30]
[00:19:31] China Village Collective Model
[00:19:31] Dr. Yongping Zhang: I am Yongping the Clean Power Programme director of, uh, the annual Foundation. Uh, we are original grantor and our mission is to, uh, combat climate change and decarbonize the. [00:19:45] Key industries. Uh, on one hand we, uh, raise funding from our founders. Mm-hmm. And on the other hand, we make grants to our grantees to support them, do, uh, research and, uh, uh, pilots projects in China.
[00:19:57] We partner with some [00:20:00] organisations in China, in rural areas. Mm-hmm. And, um, our starting point, uh, is to, uh, accelerate the deployment of, uh, distributed renewables, particularly distributed solar PV in rural areas. Mm-hmm. And, [00:20:15] um, we worked with partner to establish, uh, some model called, uh, village Collective.
[00:20:22] Okay. Yeah. Not, not, not Village and Cooperative, uh, but Village Collective, it’s a similar concept. It’s a [00:20:30] entity on behalf of the villages to coordinate with different stakeholders.
[00:20:35] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:35] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Like local government, uh, great companies, banks and developers. And, uh, it owns the assets of solar [00:20:45] pv
[00:20:45] Deesha Chandra: mm-hmm.
[00:20:45] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Uh, on the rooftops.
[00:20:46] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:20:47] Dr. Yongping Zhang: And, uh, it can and gain financial return from the, uh, rooftops and generation of electricity.
[00:20:55] Deesha Chandra: So the collective
[00:20:57] Dr. Yongping Zhang: will get roof sheds. Yeah.
[00:20:58] Deesha Chandra: Okay.
[00:20:58] Dr. Yongping Zhang: So when they get the [00:21:00] financial return and they can give, uh, divided to the villagers mm-hmm. On the other hand, they can get a portion of return to the local government.
[00:21:09] Deesha Chandra: Right.
[00:21:09] Dr. Yongping Zhang: So the. Village Collective play a very essential role in this, um, multi [00:21:15] stakeholder play.
[00:21:15] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:16] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Yeah.
[00:21:16] Deesha Chandra: Are you seen, um, good uptake of this kind of model? Is that, is that, have you seen a few examples of that working?
[00:21:23] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Yeah, we supported, uh, some, um, projects in, uh, in province
[00:21:28] Deesha Chandra: mm-hmm.
[00:21:29] Dr. Yongping Zhang: In, in China. [00:21:30] And, uh, we, uh, cooperated with, um, the local, actually a developer to help build, uh, this model.
[00:21:37] And, uh, currently we’ve, uh, established some pilot.
[00:21:41] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:42] Financing And Scalability Hurdles
[00:21:42] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Uh, but the key is how to [00:21:45] make it scalable.
[00:21:46] Deesha Chandra: Right.
[00:21:47] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Because sometimes. Uh, if you want to, uh, make this model, uh, operate, you’ll need money. Yeah. And you’ll need borrow money from banks. The banks pro will provide loan through, uh, this, um, [00:22:00] uh, model, but the bank also will re request the capital and, uh, depo deposit.
[00:22:07] So sometimes the, uh, village collective can, uh. Provide the capital mm-hmm. And the deposit, [00:22:15] but sometimes they’re not rich enough.
[00:22:18] Deesha Chandra: Right?
[00:22:18] Dr. Yongping Zhang: So there should be some, some, um, entity who provide this kind of capital and the deposit, uh, guarantee, or even some, sometimes they need some [00:22:30] insurance. So in the pilot, the actually the developer.
[00:22:35] Provide the capital.
[00:22:36] Deesha Chandra: Oh, okay.
[00:22:36] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Yeah. But,
[00:22:37] Deesha Chandra: and do they also then lead that programme as well? The developer?
[00:22:40] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Uh, yeah. They will, uh, actually sell the equipments. Mm-hmm. And they will [00:22:45] provide, uh, operation and the maintenance service. They can, uh, get money from this kind of service.
[00:22:49] Deesha Chandra: Yeah.
[00:22:50] Dr. Yongping Zhang: So if this model can, can, uh, run successful.
[00:22:54] So every party can get benefit from that.
[00:22:57] Deesha Chandra: Yeah.
[00:22:57] Dr. Yongping Zhang: But sometimes the developers don’t [00:23:00] have, uh, enough investment to provide the, the, the, the capital and, uh, and deposit. So maybe sometimes they need. Another kind of entities to make it really, uh, scalable.
[00:23:14] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:14] Dr. Yongping Zhang: So [00:23:15] this is, uh, one key barriers from financials perspective.
[00:23:18] This is why I said that we share the same similar challenges Yeah. With West Mill.
[00:23:23] Deesha Chandra: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Dr. Yongping Zhang: To expand the, the model to a large scale, we need strong and innovative financial [00:23:30] mechanism.
[00:23:30] Proving Local Value
[00:23:30] Deesha Chandra: And do you also have that people energy that we are seeing that are, I guess like a lot of these models are very community owned or community pushed or community dragged over the years, committing time to try and get these kind of energy [00:23:45] programmes off the ground.
[00:23:45] Do you find that your local people are, are energised and pushing for renewable energy? A
[00:23:53] Dr. Yongping Zhang: actually, um, the local people are very, uh, realistic.
[00:23:58] Deesha Chandra: Yeah.
[00:23:59] Dr. Yongping Zhang: If you talk [00:24:00] about, uh, climate change, maybe they, they don’t care too much. Right? Okay. But they care about the, the real, uh, benefit to them. Environmental benefit and social benefit, and also financial benefit,
[00:24:14] Victoria Santos: right?
[00:24:14] Dr. Yongping Zhang: [00:24:15] So, uh, if you, uh, tell them you can get real. Benefit and, uh, more benefit than they, uh, experienced before. Mm-hmm. They will have, uh, motivation mm-hmm. To, to try it.
[00:24:27] Victoria Santos: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:28] Dr. Yongping Zhang: And, uh. If [00:24:30] we can have some proven and cases and, uh, successful stories, and I think more people will be convinced to participate in this kind of people-centric and, uh, village collective model.
[00:24:44] Deesha Chandra: And do you have a [00:24:45] story that you, you like to talk about and how it’s impacting people in their daily lives?
[00:24:49] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Actually, before and after.
[00:24:52] Rooftop Solar Income Story
[00:24:52] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Um, because in, before we innovated this model. Normally the villagers, they, um, run their rooftops to the developers and get a fixed rental fee.
[00:25:07] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:07] Dr. Yongping Zhang: For example, typically 200 US dollars per year.
[00:25:11] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:12] Dr. Yongping Zhang: But under the new model, I mean the Village [00:25:15] Collective model, they can get a government guaranteed tourists and they actually. Get the money from the, from the revenue they sold, they sold electricity to Greece. And uh, also they, they [00:25:30] don’t get the rental fee. They, but they get the money of selling electricity.
[00:25:34] Maryam Pasha: Oh, I see.
[00:25:34] Dr. Yongping Zhang: It’s almost doubled.
[00:25:36] Maryam Pasha: Okay.
[00:25:36] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Then the, uh, rental fee and, uh, uh, with 80% share from the village, uh, collective, they can get [00:25:45] more financial return and also they can. Use money they received to buy, uh, clean heating equipments
[00:25:54] Maryam Pasha: mm-hmm.
[00:25:54] Dr. Yongping Zhang: To make their, uh, life, uh, much easier and better in winter.
[00:25:59] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:59] Dr. Yongping Zhang: [00:26:00] So on one hand they got, uh, too much money and on the other hand, they will enjoy the, uh, clean heating service.
[00:26:09] Mm-hmm. So this is a true benefit. Yeah.
[00:26:12] Deesha Chandra: That’s brilliant.
[00:26:12] Dr. Yongping Zhang: We are a philanthropy. [00:26:15] Organisation. And, uh, on one hand our mission is to combat climate change. And other hand we want to, uh, adopt a people-centric approach. So, um, I think the key issue maybe is to get [00:26:30] people to, uh, have more real, um, benefit. So, um.
[00:26:37] From two years ago, uh, we shifted our focus into, um, distributed renewables and we found. [00:26:45] This is a very wonderful scenarios for us. Mm-hmm. To, uh, use a, a concept concept of, uh, community energy or village collective concept to, on one hand promote the [00:27:00] renewable adoption.
[00:27:00] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:01] Dr. Yongping Zhang: And on the hand, on the other hand, to bring a more, uh, benefit to people.
[00:27:06] And, uh, we believe it is, um, one area where philanthropy. Can play a more essential role [00:27:15] and, uh, bring more, uh, value. And also we think it is a more sustainable way.
[00:27:21] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:21] Dr. Yongping Zhang: For us to, uh, to do, to do that.
[00:27:24] China Renewables And Distributed Solar
[00:27:24] Deesha Chandra: How is the renewable sector, the energy, renewable energy sector, different in China at the moment in comparison to what you’re [00:27:30] seeing?
[00:27:31] In,
[00:27:32] Dr. Yongping Zhang: in China, you know, China is leading, uh, the installation of renewables. Mm. Wind and solar, but the share of wind and solar generation is still relatively small. Okay. Among [00:27:45] all the renewables, uh, almost half of them, um, from solar. Mm-hmm. And, uh, for a solar, the distributed, distributed solar accounts for about 40%.[00:28:00]
[00:28:00] Okay. And even higher share, um, to the total solar installation. So that’s one reason we focused on distributed solar. Mm-hmm. Because it is a very essential
[00:28:13] Deesha Chandra: part. Can you explain what distributed solar [00:28:15] is for maybe people that might not understand.
[00:28:17] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Distributed solar. It is a concept, um, compared to the utility scale, solar.
[00:28:23] Okay. Utility scale. You can see many solar panels and within, uh, solar stations.
[00:28:28] Deesha Chandra: Yep.
[00:28:28] Dr. Yongping Zhang: But for the [00:28:30] distributed solar, it is mainly installed on the rooftops.
[00:28:34] Deesha Chandra: Right.
[00:28:34] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Of, uh, in rural areas, all in the commercial and, uh, industrial, uh, buildings.
[00:28:41] Deesha Chandra: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:42] Dr. Yongping Zhang: So this is, we, uh, what we call, uh, [00:28:45] distributed solar.
[00:28:46] Deesha Chandra: Right. And that counts for 40% of the total solar energy.
[00:28:49] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Yeah. Uh, about, uh, last year’s number is, uh, 44%
[00:28:54] Deesha Chandra: uhhuh
[00:28:54] Dr. Yongping Zhang: of the total solar.
[00:28:56] Deesha Chandra: I see.
[00:28:56] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Basically, yeah.
[00:28:57] Deesha Chandra: And there’s a, there’s a, is there motivation to [00:29:00] have that, to be higher? Then
[00:29:02] Dr. Yongping Zhang: yeah, if we can solve the, the, the, the barriers mm-hmm. Successfully.
[00:29:07] Deesha Chandra: Right.
[00:29:08] Dr. Yongping Zhang: Hopefully, uh, China can keep the momentum of the, the rapid growth.
[00:29:12] Wrap Up And Credits
[00:29:12] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for joining us this week. We really [00:29:15] hope you enjoyed this episode.
[00:29:16] Ben Hurst: If you did, be sure to hit the follow button to make sure you get next week’s release. And while you’re at it, please leave us a rating and a review.
[00:29:26] Maryam Pasha: Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the pod.
[00:29:29] Ben Hurst: [00:29:30] Executive produced by Josie Colter,
[00:29:32] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshty.
[00:29:34] Ben Hurst: Music, also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:29:36] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper,
[00:29:38] Ben Hurst: curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:29:40] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst
[00:29:42] Ben Hurst: and Maryam Pasha.
[00:29:43] Maryam Pasha: And remember,
[00:29:44] Ben Hurst: [00:29:45] stay curious.
