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Cancel culture is impacting the climate sector – and it’s stalling progress, says writer and strategist Jenny Morgan, in conversation with co-host Ben Hurst on Climate Curious. Exploring the realities of how a culture of fear in corporate climate action is delaying action, Jenny outlines a solution available right now – collaboration. Tune in to learn more about how cancel culture can sometimes overshadow climate solutions, and actionable tips to navigate away from intolerance and judgement, and towards collaboration and support.
Learn more about cancel culture in climate, at http://www.cancelcultureinclimate.com
Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
Transcript
Introduction to Climate Curious Podcast
[00:00:00] Jenny Morgan: Cancel culture, it’s overshadowing the energy and resources that we need to be spending towards climate solutions.
[00:00:09] Ben Hurst: This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate change.
[00:00:16] Maryam Pasha: I’m Marion Pasha, the director and curator at TEDxLondon and the co [00:00:20] host of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:22] Ben Hurst: Hi. I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like and self confessed climate normie. Hello, hello curious friends, we’ve had, we have had a [00:00:40] few conversations about polarisation and how to talk about climate change on this podcast already, but none specifically about cancel culture and how it’s impacting or slowing down climate action.
Meet Our Special Guest: Jenny Morgan
[00:00:53] Ben Hurst: And that’s why we’ve invited this week’s special guest onto the show. Jenny Morgan. [00:01:00] Jenny is an advocate, a strategist, and a writer dedicated towards creating more collaboration within the climate movement. She lives in America’s Pacific Northwest with her husband, Two children and two large dogs, and she’s written a book called Cancel Culture in Climate.
[00:01:18] Jenny says that so much [00:01:20] time is spent arguing on how we get to reach climate goals that we actually forget about the North Star, which is stopping climate change in the first place. So. We are super excited for Jenny to be joining us today and to help us be better stewards in climate action and Share how to have positive [00:01:40] conversations.
[00:01:40] So welcome Jenny. Maybe this is a good place to start.
Understanding Cancel Culture
[00:01:43] Ben Hurst: I’m literally Petrified of being cancelled. I feel I feel like everybody’s scared of being cancelled though It’s a scary thing, isn’t it? Because it’s like everything that you build everything that you work towards I think it’s just a reputation thing But there is a sense that like things can just be [00:02:00] taken away from you based on the court of public opinion which seems I think when you are the public it feels very fair But when you are not the public and you’re the person in the court that feels scary and intimidating
[00:02:14] Jenny Morgan: And you say the person in the court, which there is a judicial process that [00:02:20] we all are aware of and there are flaws in it, but there’s a formula in the judicial process that when you go to court, you have a representation and there’s a there’s a Consequence attached to the infraction that you’re being accused of, also innocent until proven guilty.
[00:02:38] And then you’ve [00:02:40] got this cancel culture phenomenon, which has no formula whatsoever. It’s very random. It’s hungry. It’s. starving, actually, so it always wants to be fed. And there’s never a formula that we can follow to make sure that we’re doing our due [00:03:00] diligence. And that’s where it’s a problem. It appears as if it’s a Kind of a citizen’s version of the judicial process, but it in no way is because it doesn’t follow any sort of formula.
[00:03:13] Ben Hurst: And so interesting that you articulate like that, because I’ve never, I’ve never been able to put my finger on what it [00:03:20] is that I feel is the issue, but I just know that there’s something that feels deeply unfair. It’s like, um Batman, not, maybe not Batman, maybe Batman’s a bad example, but like vigilante justice, you know?
[00:03:31] Like a, a form of justice, and I think what you said is true, right? People are starving for some kind of justice, some kind of consequence to be doled out, [00:03:40] and our judicial system, in lots of ways, is quite broken, and maybe doesn’t always get, get the bad guy, or doesn’t always get the, the person that needs to be got.
[00:03:49] And maybe even while I’m talking, I’m thinking, is it even a question of good guys and bad guys? I don’t know if that’s like a, maybe a false narrative that perpetuates this idea of [00:04:00] cancellation even being a thing. I’m not sure.
[00:04:02] Jenny Morgan: Yeah, I started to articulate it a bit more when I felt empathy for someone that I.
[00:04:12] Um, wanted to cancel and so that was very confusing because I wanted to cancel them. I felt like the [00:04:20] cancellation was justified. However, I was empathetic towards them at the same time and that was confusing for me. And then there have been times also that I’ve encountered a headline or influence to.
[00:04:35] cause me to want to cancel, but I’ve just been too exhausted that I just [00:04:40] let that one slide through. And so it’s, there’s, it’s just so confusing, especially even for the, the, the consumer of information because, you know, it can depend on, the time of day. It can depend on how inundated you’ve been with specific headlines already.[00:05:00]
[00:05:00] Um, and so it just, you never really know. Um, there’s even been times where I’m like, wait, was that person canceled or not? I feel in my gut that I don’t like them.
[00:05:11] Ben Hurst: I think they were.
[00:05:12] Jenny Morgan: Yeah.
[00:05:12] Ben Hurst: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I
[00:05:13] Jenny Morgan: think I hate them, but I can’t really remember if I do.
[00:05:17] Ben Hurst: I don’t know why. I’m not sure why, but [00:05:20] I know there’s a reason.
[00:05:20] Yeah. I always, I always. like everybody wants to cancel people until it’s their grandparents and then you never want, like there’s always this weird feeling of like, I feel like for lots of people, grandparents are the most problematic people. They’re of a different generation. They hold loads of opinions that they probably shouldn’t hold it because it’s a family dynamic.
[00:05:39] They also [00:05:40] feel very comfortable to say those things. But I think there’s also that dynamic of empathy that exists there that maybe is the barrier to that immediate response or that immediate cancellation that feels, uh, so final in lots of ways. It feels like it has lots of consequences attached to it.
[00:05:58] Um, and I’m also, I also, [00:06:00] I feel like maybe we’re jumping several steps ahead in this conversation. Um, and maybe there’s some value in like number one, outlining what. Cancel culture is because that to me feels like a behemoth of a thing. Um, and like we said, right? It feels very scary feels very overwhelming.
[00:06:18] Um, but then also how [00:06:20] does that link to To climate how does that link to the climate crisis or the climate movement? I don’t know which side is getting cancelled for what I feel like my algorithm is feeding me a lot of stuff that’s like very, very intense. Um, but number one, what is cancel culture? And then number two, how does that actually link to the conversation that we’re having about [00:06:40] climate and climate justice?
[00:06:41] Jenny Morgan: So cancel culture, just to simplify it, it’s the emphasis on controversy. And so you’re prioritizing this seeking out controversy over actually seeking out solutions. And so you’re spending your energy and your [00:07:00] resources trying to find who’s made a mistake and who’s somehow gotten through versus actually finding out how are we progressing towards our common goal, which is climate success
[00:07:13] Ben Hurst: and
[00:07:13] Jenny Morgan: climate security.
[00:07:15] And so. Everyone’s canceling each other. Everyone is [00:07:20] fearful of cancellation. Um, and so you talk about your, you know, your grandparents, the, the, and not your specifically everyone’s grandparents.
[00:07:29] Ben Hurst: Mine are mine are cool.
[00:07:31] Jenny Morgan: Yeah, yours are great. Um, but you know, there’s With our grandparents, there’s humanity and nuance that we allow to come through [00:07:40] because we understand their history.
[00:07:41] We understand their perspective. We understand the struggles that they might be going through. And so we attach this humanity and nuance to them. Yet we don’t do it for our neighbor. We don’t do it for that company that’s trying to say they’ve reduced their Lip gloss water usage by 30%. We don’t give [00:08:00] anyone that benefit of the doubt when it’s in this type of public forum, whereas our own friends and family and loved ones were allowed to let it slide.
[00:08:09] And so this form of cancel culture exists in all types of movements that have a lot of pressure on that they’re under. And that also require the masses to move [00:08:20] forward. So now that then engages this type of who’s on the right side and who’s on the wrong side. And I’m going to make sure I find out who they are.
[00:08:29] We’re trying to identify, you know, who’s on the team and who’s not. And it’s really taking us away and overshadowing the energy and resources that we need to be spending [00:08:40] towards climate solutions.
[00:08:42] Ben Hurst: And so I find this Fascinating. I find this fascinating because even while you’re talking, sorry to interrupt you, but even while you’re talking, I’m thinking, but, but they’re going to get away with it.
[00:08:51] And I don’t know who they is. And I don’t know what it is that they’re going to get away with in my mind, but there’s a real sense of like, Oh, there has to be something like, we can’t just. [00:09:00] all work together towards a common goal because I need to see somebody be the full guy and somebody needs to have carry the consequence for whatever’s going on.
Cancel Culture vs Accountability
[00:09:08] Jenny Morgan: I talk a lot about in the book, there’s a whole chapter dedicated to it, but the difference between accountability and cancel culture, they’re very different, but they’re often confused. [00:09:20] One has really positive intentions and it wants you to win and the other one is hoping that it will. Watch you fail, and we’ll be able to show it publicly.
[00:09:30] And so it’s really important to distinguish between the two. What’s the intention? Am I in this conversation to win the argument and be the smartest person [00:09:40] and the one that just recently heard the latest NPR episode on the topic and be able to just drop facts? Or am I here to find understanding and commonality so that we can both leave the conversation empowered to progress.
[00:09:55] And that’s a big, big difference between the two.
[00:09:59] Ben Hurst: And it [00:10:00] feels like there’s, I can’t help but think that there’s some link to polarization here that removes that kind of community aspect. Because in my mind, when you talk about the difference between council culture and accountability, My brain goes straight to, oh, one of them exists in the zeitgeist and one of them exists in a, in community, right?
[00:10:18] Where accountability [00:10:20] is about once we know somebody’s made a mistake, how do we bring them? How do we reconcile them with community? How do we get them to take responsibility for whatever the harm is that they’ve caused and then move forward so that that harm isn’t caused again? As opposed to cancel culture, just being like almost like a witch hunt, right?
[00:10:37] It feels like in lots of cases, people [00:10:40] are just out. for blood maybe and and also I feel like I don’t want to pass judgment on people who are advocates of cancel culture because there’s also this reality that like you can’t just live in a world where everything is just unfair all the time and nobody ever faces any consequence particularly people in positions of power so I wonder if that [00:11:00] I don’t know, does polarization link to that in that way, or is there another way that you see that operating?
[00:11:05] Jenny Morgan: Oh, I mean, definitely. I think that we all want to identify with a group, and once we’ve labeled ourselves as part of said group, that then distinguishes who’s not part of our group. And so that’s where that polarization exists. [00:11:20] I’m a Republican, I’m a Democrat, I’m a climate activist, and I’m a climate denier.
[00:11:26] I’m a nature lover, I’m a tech lover, and it can get really nuanced even where there’s two individuals that are both trying to actively solve climate change. Yeah, they’re arguing with one [00:11:40] another on who’s smarter and who’s better and who’s more effective. But if we could do technical advancements that remove carbon from the atmosphere and also leverage nature’s incredible effectiveness to instill stability, both would be great.
[00:11:58] And so we should actually be patting [00:12:00] each other on the back when we are both doing something successful rather than trying to determine who’s the winner. Um, in, in, I’ve made this a metaphor a few times and I reference it in the book too, but in. the US, there’s the, the, the, um, excitement around a fantasy [00:12:20] football team.
[00:12:20] So American football where you get to pick and choose like who’s going to be on your team. And that is what should be the essence of climate action is that we’re saying, I really like this kicker. I really like this quarterback, but. That’s not how it plays out. We’re diehard fans of, you know, I am [00:12:40] anti straw.
[00:12:41] That is me. I’m anti plastic straws. And that’s who I am. And then I’m against fossil fuels. And I’m this. And, um, you know, I, there’s this sense of tribalism. And, you know, this in group out group phenomenon that just starts to expose itself. And I it’s [00:13:00] a flaw in humanity. And I think if we can be more conscious of it, and then as we’re aware of it, apply tools and tactics to.
[00:13:11] avoid it in the future, we can be much more cognizant in the way that we’re communicating with one another so that we aren’t shaming and blaming and canceling, but we’re actually [00:13:20] listening, learning and growing. And so it’s really important to be able to massage that skill of communication because we’re all born with wanting to socialize, but we’re not all good at it.
[00:13:33] Ben Hurst: Yeah, I feel like I feel like you’re just talking directly to me. This is this is a very intense experience But it sounds like we’re talking [00:13:40] about like they’re almost like the improv class of climate justice, right? But yes, and and if I’ve learned anything from doing this podcast for however long we’ve been doing it It’s that there are multiple solutions to these problems, right?
[00:13:52] And and I’m wondering how I guess number one Is it even important to foster that space or is there a, is there a version of this where we all just [00:14:00] kind of work in silos and, and, and leave each other alone? Um, but also if that fostering of that space is important, how do we go about, because that sounds like a tool, a tool task, right?
[00:14:12] A tool order to be able to get all of these people who are, being socialized in lots of ways to just disagree with each other, [00:14:20] um, and to want the worst for each other to suddenly be in a position where they’re able to work together. So I don’t know, number one, if it’s possible and number two, if it is, how do we, how do we start to do it?
[00:14:30] Something easy for you to answer there, Jenny.
[00:14:31] Jenny Morgan: Yeah. Oh yeah. We can solve it in just a few minutes.
Practical Solutions and Real-Life Examples
[00:14:34] Jenny Morgan: Um, well, so first using that example of this. [00:14:40] argument that you saw in real time, I think the first thing to do to solve that is remembering what are we trying to solve here? And so we’re trying to solve climate change.
[00:14:52] And the only way to do that is through a collective movement. So we then ask ourselves, are we going to be [00:15:00] able to convince the entire world to stop eating meat? And if we operate in reality, we know that that isn’t true. So both solutions are applicable here. You should help reduce the amount of environmental discourse and impact [00:15:20] the negative implications on the environment through food production and agriculture.
[00:15:25] We should find ways to reduce that impact. And then we should also encourage consumers. about ways that they can better educate themselves on their consumption patterns. And then if both are successful, we’ve now got [00:15:40] two things moving at the same time that will enhance our ability to navigate out of this crisis.
[00:15:46] And so, uh, I see this with electrification of vehicles. too. You’ve got pro electrification of vehicles really excited about reducing the amount of emissions that are caused by transportation. But then you’ve got [00:16:00] anti electrification of vehicles because of the impacts that it has on it. Um, mining and on communities that are displaced through this work.
[00:16:11] And so there’s a lot of negative things that come about through mining and trying to have more battery production to power these vehicles. Then you just [00:16:20] drop in somebody that just is pro public transportation and talks about how cars in general electrified or not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get
[00:16:29] Ben Hurst: rid of all the cars, make it like Venice.
[00:16:31] And let’s just have waterways. Exactly.
[00:16:33] Jenny Morgan: Yeah. And so now you’ve got three entities fighting and we’re all watching saying, Oh man, I drove my [00:16:40] Tesla here to this point. Yeah, I
[00:16:41] Ben Hurst: flew here.
[00:16:44] Jenny Morgan: And so like, who, who’s benefiting from this conversation, except for those three people that are maybe going to get a gold, silver and bronze medal in this argument.
[00:16:52] Otherwise, everyone’s just going to be left kind of wondering. Am I, did I lose too? Or am I good [00:17:00] after this? And so it’s really remembering that your, your choices and how you communicate really matter. And so when you’re starting to engage in a topic, first thing you have to ask yourself is, what’s my goal here?
[00:17:15] Is my goal to shame this person? Or is my goal to? find commonality [00:17:20] to, to work yourself out of this, you know, debate that you’ve just now gotten into.
[00:17:26] Ben Hurst: I think this is the thing that I always get stuck on is where do we see this stuff happening? I think electrification of vehicles is a really, really good example and something that I’ve been confused about even whilst doing [00:17:40] this podcast.
[00:17:40] We did an episode about Formula E which was really, really interesting in terms of the progress we’re making and then. The next week you could be talking to somebody who’s like, we should just get rid of cars, or everybody should just ride on buses, nobody should own a personal car, or whatever it might be, and there are so many different ways of approaching maybe one issue.
[00:17:57] I’m wondering if there are [00:18:00] Other examples that you that you’ve seen if there are other examples that stick out to you where you’ve seen this at play
[00:18:05] Jenny Morgan: Oh, yeah, the carbon markets. That’s a easy one. Um, so to explain what that is, it’s Carbon credit is kind of like a token that represents a positive impact and so that’s what it’s [00:18:20] used for you can either generate these tokens by doing good things or You can purchase these tokens to make amends for Uh, something negative you’ve done in the environment, so you
[00:18:31] Ben Hurst: Wait, so is this, is this like a real physical token or is it like an online
[00:18:35] Jenny Morgan: It’s, it’s, it’s kind of like currency.
[00:18:38] We’ve invented it to [00:18:40] represent something positive. And so
[00:18:43] Ben Hurst: Okay.
[00:18:43] Jenny Morgan: A lot of companies, they’ll emit 100 tons of of greenhouse gases, and then they’ll buy 100 carbon credits to then make themselves at null at zero.
[00:18:56] Ben Hurst: Right, right, right. So to neutralize their car. It’s like carbon [00:19:00] footprints, right?
[00:19:00] Jenny Morgan: Correct. So you’re you’re measuring and then there’s People that are selling these credits to compensate for this emission.
[00:19:08] But there’s a ton of controversy around carbon credits because there have been some that have falsified information. Um, and you know, that’s then [00:19:20] made the market seem very, uh, lacking transparency, lacking accountability. Um, some accused this. This market to be a way to pollute and then make amends for it later So you can be naughty all year long and then just pay for a bunch of credits and then that [00:19:40]
[00:19:40] Ben Hurst: yeah Yeah, so
[00:19:41] Jenny Morgan: it’s
[00:19:41] Ben Hurst: like cleaning the house before Christmas, right?
[00:19:43] It’s trying to get back in that good list. Yeah Yeah,
[00:19:46] Jenny Morgan: or you show up to you know, do some sort of civil act in December, but then you’re, you know, not very kind to anyone throughout the year. So yes, that’s something that has received a lot [00:20:00] of negative publicity around it, because there’s these kind of accusations.
[00:20:06] But then on the other side, there are. incredible projects happening that are getting funding through this market that will never get funding from the government. They’ll never get funding, enough funding from non profits. [00:20:20] It’s a way that you’ve actually attached a financial mechanism that can make.
[00:20:25] Environmental positivity happen. And so you’ve got these two sides and there’s arguments about it all the time that happened where, you know, people are accusing and oil and gas organization that’s buying a bunch [00:20:40] of credits as a liar and unwilling to participate. But then, uh, you know, the lip gloss that is also buying carbon credits to just be a Carbon neutral or a, uh, positive entity in the space, they too are getting shamed for that.
[00:20:58] And so, um, similar [00:21:00] like electrical, electrification of vehicles, you’ve got these two camps that are, I’m trying to solve a problem. Well, it’s not good enough. And it’s like this. Perfection. We’re putting perfection on to people and on to organizations, and it’s never going to be about perfection. It’s always going to be about progress.
[00:21:18] Ben Hurst: It reminds me of that adage that I [00:21:20] think I heard on the podcast maybe a few years ago of like, we don’t need, um, one perfect climate activist. We need millions of imperfect ones. And in the same way, maybe we don’t need one perfect solution. We need a bunch of imperfect solutions that move us closer to that goal.
[00:21:36] I’m wondering. If we don’t get this conversation around [00:21:40] cancel culture and polarization correct, what happens?
[00:21:43] Jenny Morgan: We’ll continue seeing this divide. The divide will start to become even larger. The problem is, is we’re trying to solve a problem in real time. So we’re watching everyone. Try things and iterate and it’s all happening [00:22:00] publicly, but we have to remember that where we are today is an accumulation of, of behavior over hundreds of years.
[00:22:10] And so we’re here today trying to solve a problem and it won’t be a flip of a switch. And so, We have to understand that and be empathetic towards that. And so [00:22:20] if we do not have empathetic conversations where we’re holding ourselves responsible for having positive conversations, then we’re going to continue fighting will continue to encourage people to not participate, which is the opposite of that will.
[00:22:39] She [00:22:40] accidentally shame organizations that are doing incredible work, and now we’ve changed them. So they’ll just stop doing it. Don’t just stop
[00:22:47] Ben Hurst: it.
[00:22:48] Jenny Morgan: What’s the return on their investment? I mean, they’re just gonna be shamed for doing something good. Might as well stop public
[00:22:53] Ben Hurst: public humiliation for doing
[00:22:56] Jenny Morgan: something positive.
[00:22:57] And so,
[00:22:57] Ben Hurst: yeah.
[00:22:58] Jenny Morgan: It will be continued to be [00:23:00] confusing, uh, and, and, you know, very argumentative and very siloed. And this is not a crisis that we can do in a vacuum. It is something we have to do that some people are going to be on step 5000 in their journey. Some people are going to be going on step one and [00:23:20] both are stepping towards progress.
[00:23:23] That’s 5, 001. And so, it’s great. And so that should be something that we do. My mom has done, now I’ve outed her, but she’ll, she’ll love it. Um, I have just watched her. Do so many [00:23:40] things because I’m in Environmental impact and she has become so much more active in yeah that space But there’s no way she’s ever gonna compost no way because it’s gross.
[00:23:52] Yeah, she doesn’t want it
[00:23:53] Ben Hurst: is disgusting I resonate with your mom on that one. Yeah, I don’t want those fruit flies in my house
[00:23:59] Jenny Morgan: If there was a [00:24:00] fruit fly in my mom’s house, she would just leave, I think. And so, it’s never gonna happen. But should I shame her for that? Or should I celebrate the fact that she’s collecting plastic wrap in a drawer?
[00:24:11] A drawer that’s hidden away from the public. You know, no
[00:24:14] Ben Hurst: one knows.
[00:24:16] Jenny Morgan: Um, but she’s bringing it to Target, which [00:24:20] has a plastic buyback program. And so, That is something that’s really, they bought solar panels and saved up for it for years to do that. And this is someone that has never dabbled in climate activism ever.
[00:24:33] And should I focus on the composting or should I focus on the fact that she is a rock star and has [00:24:40] completely changed her life? And so that’s exciting. So if there’s somebody that’s Using styrofoam and has realized that it’s impossible to recycle and get rid of. They start to change the way that they pick up their coffee order now.
[00:24:58] And they do something different. [00:25:00] That’s progress and that should be celebrated. We shouldn’t be like, wait, you’re You’ve seen styrofoam lately. I mean, that’s not going to encourage them to do anything that changes for the better. And so, um, that’s a real life example of how we should be really celebratory because it has a ripple effect.
[00:25:17] When you celebrate something that someone’s doing, they’re going to [00:25:20] do more and. They’re going to share it with their friend and then their friend’s going to think about it might take them about a year or so, but then they’re like, you know what? I really liked what they had going on at their house and it really does.
[00:25:32] I’ve seen it in real life. It’s exciting.
[00:25:34] Ben Hurst: I’m wondering, you mentioned the equations from the book, and I think that this [00:25:40] is For, for our listeners, I think this is the thing that they always want to know, right? It’s like, practically, okay, I hear what you’re saying. I agree. You make sense. You sound like a smart person.
[00:25:50] What do I do? How do I start to action this? Like, is there something I can do tomorrow in a conversation I have with my dad? Or is there something I can do in a conversation, uh, [00:26:00] with my local MP or with my boyfriend to do what you did with your mum and start moving people towards action? I don’t know if you’ve got any tips.
[00:26:07] for that.
[00:26:08] Jenny Morgan: Yeah. So first thing you need to do is build rapport. So you need to create a safe environment, a trusting environment where you and whomever you’re speaking to both [00:26:20] feel safe, that they’re not going to be shamed for whatever they’re about to say or whatever you’re about to talk about.
[00:26:26] Ben Hurst: Fundamental.
[00:26:27] Jenny Morgan: Build that rapport first and foremost. And then you need to explore perspective. So let’s say that they have said something that You feel in opposition to ask a question. You know, what do you mean by that? [00:26:40] I had a conversation with someone that I was talking about the book coming out and they said, oh, I don’t really believe in climate change It’s not really my thing.
[00:26:48] That’s you know
[00:26:51] Ben Hurst: Okay,
[00:26:51] Jenny Morgan: yeah But I Didn’t judge them at that point, but I did say well what we’re [00:27:00] really talking about is pollution And do you, you know, do you care about pollution and you can bring up a recent Action or a recent, uh, you know, weather implication that’s happened due to pollution, maybe air quality or something of that sort trash out in the neighborhood and how that doesn’t help with [00:27:20] their, you know, their, um, the cost of living or, you know, whatever they’re more focused on.
[00:27:27] And so you then kind of change the word. I don’t have any. If I change global warming to pollution, that doesn’t bother me as long as it gets someone engaged in the conversation. So you’ve built rapport [00:27:40] and now you’ve explored their perspective. They care about pollution. They don’t believe in global warming, but they do care about pollution.
[00:27:46] So now you’re Transcription by CastingWords kind of getting a relatable conversation going and you want to inspire that. So what’s something that would help if pollution was reduced? How would that help your life? And so now you’re kind of getting into this [00:28:00] relatable conversation and you’re getting into change talk now.
[00:28:04] You’re not talking at them, you’re talking about actually behavioral change. And so you’re on the same side and you created this connection and then now you create common ground. So I don’t like pollution. Therefore, I am going [00:28:20] to change the way I sort my trash. And what that’s done is it’s reduced pollution.
[00:28:27] I’m happy, you’re happy, and we’ve all found a commonality that can bring us towards the goal. And so that’s, I go into the book about how I worked with a somewhat controversial [00:28:40] decision maker at an organization that If I some would cancel me for even talking to them and because they are a bit problematic and we worked through these steps and now they are participating in climate action.
[00:28:56] Are they the best? No. Do they still do shameful things? Yes. [00:29:00] But are they one step closer to positivity? Yes. And so that’s that’s what makes me happy. Inspired by these types of conversations because it does move the needle.
[00:29:13] Ben Hurst: I love that point about being curious, um, and asking good questions and also not being precious.
[00:29:19] I [00:29:20] think that’s something that’s quite easy for all of us to change. Um, being really precious about our frameworks and our terminologies and our language, um, and the phrases that we use to describe things. Maybe if they’re not resonating, we just need to change it to something that’s more relevant to the person that we’re talking to.
[00:29:35] Right. Any other? examples of successes that you’ve [00:29:40] seen, um, in having these conversations or changes that you’ve seen made from having these conversations?
[00:29:45] Jenny Morgan: Yeah, I mean there’s I work with companies that are struggling with this. They’re either afraid of being canceled or they have been canceled. Mm-hmm
[00:29:54] And what’s been really inspiring for me is when they go internally and [00:30:00] they just talk with one another inside their organization. Yeah. Because it’s, it’s somewhat of a. small subset of the society, the society that they’re trying to engage. Now you’ve got a small subset of people that are intimately familiar with the business and [00:30:20] have opinions are very in touch with what the public is saying, but it’s in somewhat of a safe place.
[00:30:26] And so I’ve seen, you know, uh, Sustainability leader that’s doing all of the carbon accounting and measuring and trying to figure out how they’re going to move, you know, move these emissions over here and really trying to figure out the [00:30:40] the mathematics and the accounting of carbon and and pollution and then you’ve got a marketing person that’s trying to just Say it in 5 to 10 words, and they’re feeling
[00:30:50] Ben Hurst: like make it simple.
[00:30:51] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:52] Jenny Morgan: And so it’s so complicated and they need it to be something that everyone can understand in two seconds while they’re walking down aisle [00:31:00] 10. And so they’re usually at odds. And so it’s been really nice to see. Both parties talk about their challenges, being able to understand that and then working together to kind of translate what climate work is and putting that into words that the [00:31:20] consumer can understand.
[00:31:21] And so that’s been really cool to see, because, you know, you usually don’t think of a person that works for a company, a. Also fighting with the other person that works for company a, but they actually do have, you know, challenges that they’re, they’re trying to overcome. And so when they come together and talk, [00:31:40] it’s, it’s been really nice to see that kind of growth.
[00:31:42] And that can happen inside of companies or even just with your neighbor.
[00:31:47] Ben Hurst: And I think it’s, it’s like, it really does give you hope, doesn’t it? That change is possible. And I think one of the things that I’m realising from this conversation is that change doesn’t always look how we will expect [00:32:00] it to look.
[00:32:00] It doesn’t always look like what we envision when we imagine change happening. Um But it is possible and it does happen when people are able to have conversations where maybe that judgment is suspended, where people are curious about their perspectives, where people make the conversation accessible for them and give them a route that they can take and where people [00:32:20] allow people to do the work for themselves, right?
[00:32:22] It’s not about telling people the solution or giving them the answer. It’s about moving them into a space where they’re able to do that thinking on their own terms and come up with some solutions. Um, which I think is amazing. I think it’s, it’s so encouraging.
Climate Confessions
[00:32:35] Ben Hurst: And now, it’s time for our climate confessions.
[00:32:39] Let’s [00:32:40] fess up to the bad habits we just can’t kick. So, we’re at the part of the show which is climate confessions, where we’re gonna ask you to share your climate confession. This is, this is a very difficult task. We’ve been doing this show for a long time, and I am Probably the [00:33:00] worst person and and today in today’s episode I’ve discovered something new that I’m doing that I didn’t even realize because I didn’t know that styrofoam was that bad So my climate confession is that I’ve been using styrofoam guilt free I’ve been using that stuff up and disposing of it at every possible opportunity I don’t think I’ve ever kept anything [00:33:20] made of styrofoam.
[00:33:21] We still buy styrofoam cups for Like, parties, barbecues, um, for Christmas, I think we’ve got some downstairs for people to have their teas and coffees in, because it’s just easier than washing up cups, but I’ve learnt today that maybe that’s not the best, maybe that is not the best way to approach the issue.
[00:33:39] So my confession [00:33:40] is That I am a styrofoam cup abuser. Okay. And, and I will, I promise, I promise by next season, I will have made the change and cut styrofoam cups out of my consumer usage. Um, Jenny, I don’t know if you’ve got, if you’ve got a climate confession. I hope you have. Well, I also hope [00:34:00] you don’t, but it’s up to you.
[00:34:01] You go free. And what’s your climate confession.
[00:34:03] Jenny Morgan: So I have a heater. blows on my legs all year round. Um, I, um, and it’s, I mean, it’s an old heater that just oscillates [00:34:20] right next to my legs. I love the feeling of it. I’m often very cold. I work in a basement that’s cold, even in the summertime, it’s cold. So the air conditioning might be blowing in the house to keep the house cold, but my legs.
[00:34:35] So I could have air conditioning and a heater [00:34:40] going at the same time. Um,
[00:34:42] Ben Hurst: that is excessive.
[00:34:43] Jenny Morgan: So, yes. So, um, yeah, that’s, um, problematic. Um, but I don’t have a solution for it right now, which is kind of what we’re at.
[00:34:56] Ben Hurst: I’m sorry. I’m going to keep on
[00:34:59] Jenny Morgan: using [00:35:00] it. Yeah, I think it’s, um, I think it’s a circuit. I’m gonna like make it medical so you don’t cancel me.
[00:35:06] I, I said medical. Um, I have a doctor’s note,
[00:35:09] Ben Hurst: but
[00:35:12] Jenny Morgan: yeah, my legs and my feet are often very cold. So I’m just blowing that heat. Laughing about this is the exact opposite of cancel [00:35:20] culture. It’s not shame based. It’s really positive. So I Thank you for welcoming me to this conversation and blowing hot air on my legs during the whole thing.
[00:35:29] Ben Hurst: You’re so welcome. And thank you for I think you’re also role modeling something here, which is really important, right? Which is that we’re actually all in this together. No one’s perfect. No one’s getting it 100 [00:35:40] percent right. And therefore no one really has the right to cancel anyone or judge anyone in that way.
[00:35:45] At the same time we can’t stop having conversations about where things are going wrong and pointing the finger at things that are incorrect. Um, but maybe moving from a model of cancel culture to a model of accountability is a solution here. Um, [00:36:00] but Jenny, thank you so much for, for talking with us today.
[00:36:02] Thank you so much for sharing. I cannot wait to read this book. I feel like it’s going to be so applicable to like my other, my other pieces of work and everyday life conversations. Um, so I’m really, really excited. so much for chatting with us.
[00:36:16] Jenny Morgan: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Closing Remarks and Credits
[00:36:18] Ben Hurst: Thank you for joining [00:36:20] us this week.
[00:36:20] We really hope you enjoyed this episode.
[00:36:23] Maryam Pasha: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure you get next week’s release.
[00:36:27] Ben Hurst: We are now officially crowdsourcing Climate Confession, so please leave yours in the ratings and the reviews section and we’ll shout out for you next time. And shout out to our fabulous team behind [00:36:40] the pod.
[00:36:40] Maryam Pasha: This episode was produced by Josie Coulter. Artwork designed by Rebecca Mingus.
[00:36:45] Ben Hurst: Curation by Mariam Pasha.
[00:36:47] Maryam Pasha: Mix and engineers by Ben Beheshty.
[00:36:49] Ben Hurst: Music also by Ben Beheshty. Presented by Ben Hurst and Mariam Pasha. Remember, stay [00:37:00] curious.
