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Wild rivers in Europe are vanishing fast—but not on Besjana Guri and Olsi Nika’s watch. In this episode of Climate Curious, the Albanian conservation activists share how over a ten year period they overcame big business, government pressure, and plenty of red tape to protect the Vjosa River in The Balkans—one of the last truly wild rivers in Europe. Their win earned them the 2025 Goldman Environmental Prize, but they stress that the work doesn’t end here. Tune in to hear the story of their momentous climate win!
Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
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00:00 Introduction to Climate Curious
01:05 Special Guests: Besjana Guri and Olsi Nika
06:12 The Vjosa river
09:19 The impact of hydropower on rivers
15:21 The fight to protect the Vjosa River
21:51 Challenges and triumphs in environmental activism
27:17 The role of legal action in environmental protection
35:31 Future goals and ongoing efforts
38:34 Closing remarks and credits
Transcript
[00:00:00] Introduction to Climate Curious
[00:00:00] Besjana Guri: It takes all the time and all your energy, but it fulfills you When you find something that fulfills you. You don’t think of quitting, you don’t think of doing something else. You know,
[00:00:14] Ben Hurst: this is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored. Scared or confused by climate change.
[00:00:20] Maryam Pasha: This, I’m m Kasha, the director and curator at Taylor of London and the co-host of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:27] Maryam Pasha: Hi, I’m Pasha, the director and curator [00:00:30] at London, and the cohost of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben Self.
[00:00:34] Ben Hurst: I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate, exploring what positive masculinities can look like. Hello and hello, self-confessed Climate norm. This week we’re gonna be
[00:00:42] Maryam Pasha: joined by two amazing people from a part of the world that we’ve never spoken about.
[00:00:48] Ben Hurst: Mm. Never been to.
[00:00:51] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I’ve never been either
[00:00:52] Ben Hurst: mysterious, um, elusive.
[00:00:55] Maryam Pasha: Yes. Let me tell you a bit about them. Mm-hmm. Because I think it’s gonna be quite a great [00:01:00] conversation. I think it’s gonna be one we all need these days, Uhhuh, with a bit of optimism and inspiration.
[00:01:05] Special Guests: Besjana Guri and Olsi Nika
[00:01:05] Maryam Pasha: But today we’re gonna be joined by two incredible grassroots activists.
[00:01:10] Maryam Pasha: Beana Guru and ssi. Nika Bera is a social worker and SSI is a biologist and aquatic ecologist. I’m hoping he tells us what that is and they are two activists from Albania who, who spent I think over a decade trying to protect one of the last world rivers [00:01:30] in Europe.
[00:01:30] Ben Hurst: Ah. Do you I, what’s the hold river? I
[00:01:33] Maryam Pasha: don’t, I’m, this is what I’m so excited to find out, to be honest.
[00:01:35] Maryam Pasha: ’cause I, this sounds maybe ridiculous, but I didn’t know there were different kinds of rivers. And so the really exciting thing is that they are just one of seven groups who’ve just won the Goldman Environmental prize.
[00:01:48] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, the Goldman Prize. Congratulations
[00:01:50] Maryam Pasha: is very, very cool. I’ve like been stalking its winners for years and basically what it does is it picks out.
[00:01:57] Maryam Pasha: Amazing leadership, um, and [00:02:00] achievement of grassroots activists from around the world. And I think quite inspirational to help us win at a time when things feel impossible. So, should we, should we jump into it?
[00:02:11] Ben Hurst: Hi, Bessy and Sie.
[00:02:13] Maryam Pasha: My first question is, is tell us a bit about both of you. Like I, what brought you to this
[00:02:20] Besjana Guri: work?
[00:02:21] Besjana Guri: So we, we definitely didn’t know each other before the vosa, so we met each other on two positions, in fact. [00:02:30] So we, we started to work for the Vosa project, and that was, uh, 12 years ago. So. So basically the Vosa brought us together.
[00:02:38] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:38] Besjana Guri: And we, we both were very young at that time. Ossi had started some months earlier than me to work for the Vosa project, and I joined and we were just creating the, the team was just being set up in Albania to, to run the, the campaign for, for the protection of the VSA River.
[00:02:58] Besjana Guri: And since then we’ve [00:03:00] been working together. For many, many actions and to make sure that the V still free flow.
[00:03:07] Maryam Pasha: Amazing. And, and just tell us a bit about you and your background. Like is this something that you have both done? Are you, have you been like, yeah. What a bit. I’m activist from
[00:03:17] Ben Hurst: a baby. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:18] Maryam Pasha: What’s your background?
[00:03:20] Besjana Guri: I started social work. I’m a social scientist and I mean, that was my background when it comes to university, but. Before that, I’ve been living [00:03:30] in a small town in northeast of Albania, and as a kid I was grown in a very beautiful nature around. Um, I only saw nice and beautiful nature.
[00:03:41] Besjana Guri: I will always was very connected to, to outdoors and to nature. And I think that was a really an important, um, thing in my life that determin mind. Uh, at least in myself, love for nature and passion for nature. But I, to be honest, I didn’t [00:04:00] know that I would become an environmental activist when I was a teenager, for instance.
[00:04:06] Besjana Guri: But when I was a grownup, I, I knew that I wanted to do something and I wanted to work in a project that deals with some mountain area protected area, you know, environmental issues. So that was, mm-hmm. And, uh, but yeah, of course Vosa then determined my activism life and yeah, that’s from my side.
[00:04:29] Olsi Nika: How about you, [00:04:30] SIE?
[00:04:30] Olsi Nika: It’s pretty much similar, but I’m coming from the south, so a little bit more closer to the, to the vosa. But honestly speaking, uh, I. Had a clue, you know, about the uniqueness of the, and, uh, so I got to know when I was starting to, to work with it. But I’m, uh, by background, I’m more, I’m, uh, closer, you know, to the, what I’ve been doing, uh, because I studied biology, uh, hydrobiology as a matter of fact, than [00:05:00] I’m specialized in aquatic biology and environmental biology.
[00:05:05] Olsi Nika: Okay? So it’s practically what I, uh, what I studied for. So I’m expert on assessing the water quality on fresh water, marine water as well. However, the, the campaigning is nothing to do with, uh, with my scientific data. Oh, right. Because it’s, it’s absolutely, uh, something else. So it’s more about engaging, it’s more about [00:05:30] communication, it’s more about inspiring, it’s more about coordination and, and.
[00:05:35] Olsi Nika: Keep going and persisting. Uh, and I think this is what I’ve been doing, uh, and my, and my, let’s say my, uh, research and scientific career, it’s a kind of going parallel with this one, although at the view side it’s, uh, I think it’s an important, uh. Ground to also conduct studies and researches and, uh, that what the, the [00:06:00] white community of scientists are doing since 2016 in the OSA coal, they call the river as their little, uh, lab, the little babies.
[00:06:09] Olsi Nika: So it’s like they also,
[00:06:12] The Vjosa river
[00:06:12] Maryam Pasha: will you actually tell us a bit about the, the vosa and why it’s so special? The
[00:06:18] Olsi Nika: vosa is, uh, it’s literally a unique river. Uh, and the uniqueness mostly comes from, uh, the fact that it’s an intact river. So it’s a [00:06:30] free flow and from the source of the sea, and not only the, but also the Trinity Tower, creating a such, uh, really, uh, amazing, outstanding and unique, the free flowing river and ecosystem, which is very rare nowadays in Europe.
[00:06:46] Olsi Nika: Because of the historical, uh, background that the rivers in Europe are being used since, I don’t know, centuries ago by building dams, dies, navigation purposes, whatever, [00:07:00] and s on peace cor ide, it’s absolutely free flowing river in a free floor, that it’s the basis of providing home to a variety of species damaged species, threatened species.
[00:07:15] Olsi Nika: Uh, and of course it’s also a variety of habitats and it’s a healthy ecosystem that could provide more, uh, than, uh, altered or attained
[00:07:28] Ben Hurst: basically. [00:07:30] This is so interesting, right. My, my context for Rivers is only the Thames, and I just feel like that’s not, like, it’s not, it’s not a river that you like, I mean, it’s not wild.
[00:07:39] Ben Hurst: A beloved live river. Right. And then I don’t, are there species that live in there? I dunno.
[00:07:44] Olsi Nika: Exactly. Literally, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really unfortunate to, uh. To say, but that’s the reality that young generations in Europe are, uh, that’s what they have as a river. Right? Just a canal, you know? And that’s what they know because [00:08:00] they were born and raised Canal, that’s what they call the river.
[00:08:03] Olsi Nika: And then we are coming in the back comes not only in the, with the Sea River Rever, you know, like, oh, they said, but there’s something else because they’re not used to. But when we filed a complaint to the Baren Convention against the construction of hydropower, the, they organized an all spot appraisal with new patent, an expert to come and check, you know, facts on site.
[00:08:27] Olsi Nika: And that expert was also from, [00:08:30] I think Scottland or England, but was, you know, from, uh, from uk. You know, we worried that he was of course, astonished. And I, I just give one question. What had been the last time that you have seen a river like this? And where Penny said just, uh, 35 years ago in Africa.
[00:08:51] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I never thought of this idea of wild rivers.
[00:08:54] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm. It’s, and it, and it’s very evocative. Um, uh, tell [00:09:00] I, I guess we took, we’ve, we’ve mentioned this, the, the, the hydropower a few times, and I guess for those like me who just don’t really know the, the ins and outs of, of how this impacts rivers and nature, will you, will you tell us a bit about it?
[00:09:19] The impact of hydropower on rivers
[00:09:19] Ben Hurst: I, I thought hydropower was a good thing.
[00:09:21] Ben Hurst: I, in my mind, it’s like the same as like wind turbines and solar panels where it’s like, those are just things that are good ’cause they’re natural sources of energy. But [00:09:30] it sounds like we don’t like hydropower for the river. I don’t know
[00:09:35] Olsi Nika: if I may, you know, it’s just to be clear, everything has its ecological footprint.
[00:09:42] Olsi Nika: It’s just a matter of how much it justifies, you know, the, the. Development any project. So the coal, the oil, the hydropower, wind, solar as well. But it’s just a matter of how justifies the development of it. And it’s also [00:10:00] just a matter of how less it’s harming, you know, the environment. And of course there’s nothing good just to be, to be sure about the best energy and the, the cheaper one is.
[00:10:11] Olsi Nika: The one which is, which is not produced or the same one. This is a simple hand, uh, when it comes to the energy. However, the hydropower back in, I don’t know, several decades ago, was literally thought as a green and renewable energy. And in this, uh, we have also part of the [00:10:30] sea, like we, the environmentalist because we have pushed, uh, more into the hydro because we were.
[00:10:36] Olsi Nika: Criticizing mostly the coal and the oil. You know, however, however, the, the more and more studies and the research show that there is literally no other way worse than the hydropower in relation to biodiversity and to the local communities. So hydropower kills the biodiversity forever [00:11:00] because if one Derrick, the Vosa River would’ve been built.
[00:11:03] Olsi Nika: That river have been killed forever because it blocks the migratory waste for water, for sediments, for fish and other species, right? So it’s practically becoming the Dent River, like the many, many others in in Europe. That just canals. So they don’t host bio diversity. And in relation to the, to the local communities, I may give you only one feet.
[00:11:28] Olsi Nika: So worldwide, there are [00:11:30] more than 80 million people that are obliged and forced to be resettled because of the hydropower, because that they are going to be flooded, their lands, their resources, or they have to wall because the lack of water and the diversion schemes. You know, that’s, uh, it’s really, um, impactful figure.
[00:11:53] Maryam Pasha: Is it? Right. I mean, I’m just curious, is this something that’s reversible? Like, can you bring these [00:12:00] rivers back once you down them, or is it kind of once you’ve done it, it’s done. That’s another
[00:12:06] Besjana Guri: thing for the hydropower, that the damage that they do to the river is irreversible or hardly very, hardly reversible because they, they block basically.
[00:12:19] Besjana Guri: The, the roots for fish, they block the sediments, they flood the, the area, and they affect not only above the dam, but also [00:12:30] downstream by deepening the riverbed. By blocking the sediments, they don’t reach the sea and we lose the land. So the seed takes advantage and the sea erosion is even more higher.
[00:12:43] Besjana Guri: And the species that live there, they will get extinct because they cannot. Survive in a new environment that they will be living.
[00:12:51] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:53] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:54] Besjana Guri: And coming back to, to the social aspects, the people that will have to leave their houses, [00:13:00] definitely they will have to start the life in elsewhere, I mean, somewhere else.
[00:13:05] Besjana Guri: So the, the impacts are really irreversible and it’s, and when it comes to wild rivers, then with only one dam, you, you definitely, you kill it. ’cause the whole, uh, whole story about the wild rivers is they flow freely in their riverbed and they’re not interrupted together with the, all the biodiversity that live there.[00:13:30]
[00:13:30] Besjana Guri: So if you put one dam, you kill it. Imagine even more like it was in the bosa. We had, we started the fight against one big dam, but on the way there were 45 hydropower plants in all the river itself. 45 tributaries. So. Including the whole river system of the vosa was planned to be, to be damped and to be built and to be diverted.
[00:13:56] Besjana Guri: So that would be a total disaster. Wow. Is it? [00:14:00] Luckily that’s out of the agenda now. We, we managed to save the river and we have a wild river national park. Which is a great success for Albania, but not only for, also for Europe.
[00:14:13] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:14] Besjana Guri: And hopefully, uh, to be, um, a blueprint project for other rivers in the bike.
[00:14:19] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm. So why were the developers planning? Did they, I, I mean, this might sound like a stupid question in hindsight, but did they not know at the time what the impacts would be? Or did they just [00:14:30] not care about what the impacts were gonna be on, on the river and the, the environment around it?
[00:14:34] Besjana Guri: I would say they don’t, they didn’t care.
[00:14:37] Besjana Guri: Right. And might be that they didn’t have a lot of information because the VSA was not that much studied.
[00:14:45] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:46] Besjana Guri: So there were, there were some data about, you know, biodiversity and the importance when it comes to natural ecosystem of the vsa. But there was very old data or few data. [00:15:00] So we started, when we were campaigning, we started also to, to give more and more scientific arguments.
[00:15:06] Besjana Guri: And to prove that why Beyonce is so special. Mm.
[00:15:10] Maryam Pasha: So maybe could, could you take us through that? Because I guess I’m, I’m just so curious to know how from 12 years ago when you started to,
[00:15:19] Ben Hurst: mm-hmm.
[00:15:21] The fight to protect the Vjosa river
[00:15:21] Maryam Pasha: Getting this designation as a national park, can you take us through that journey a little bit?
[00:15:29] Besjana Guri: [00:15:30] So initially there was a study that was conducted by two, uh, international organizations, our partner organizations, the River Watch and Erna Tour.
[00:15:38] Besjana Guri: I. Which they assessed all the Balkan rivers. And in comparison to the European rivers, they saw that all the last free flowing rivers and pristine rivers are in the Balkans. And they identified all these rivers. And we also was one of the, the most important ones, the big wild river in Europe that needed protection because at the same [00:16:00] time, of course, they also assessed the threats, which was the hide power.
[00:16:05] Besjana Guri: And in that time, there were like. 2000 something. Now we are 4,000 and more. I, I can’t remember the figure now, but we, it, after 12 years, the number of the planned and even the constructed one is increased. But when we started, that was how, how the campaign started. And, uh, but the, for the V size, I said there was not very much.
[00:16:26] Besjana Guri: Known. So people would say like, we know more [00:16:30] about the Amazon than about the Via sign. So that’s how, how we started. We, we definitely, we wanted to to launch a public campaign and in the meantime engage other actors like we did. But the first thing that we did was be in the valley. We had meetings with local people, meetings with local government, and explain.
[00:16:52] Besjana Guri: What are the plans for the hydropower and what are the opportunities, which is the national park? We’ve been clear since the beginning. [00:17:00] We want to stop the dams and we want to have the VS as a national park, and that was really important for us. I think that was one of the main things that helped us stay focused was that we have a clear vision since the beginning and we keep, we stick to it, but of course we need it.
[00:17:15] Besjana Guri: People to be aware and to, to also to join the coast. Definitely the local people, they had no clue. They had no clue that the hydropower are going to be built right. Except one that was publicly known. You know, there was a [00:17:30] concession about one hydropower, but they, they didn’t know that there were, there were eight hydropower in the main river.
[00:17:37] Besjana Guri: Wow. And the rest of it in the tributaries. So they started to, of course, to. To get worried. And also at the same time, we wanted to empower them with information and we raised more awareness on the Wild River. There was, it was a new concept, to be honest, in Albania, nobody knew what the wild river means for the White Republic.
[00:17:58] Besjana Guri: I mean, because experts of [00:18:00] course they know, but people they didn’t know. So we started to raising awareness about the, the importance of wild rivers and the biodiversity that lives in there, and. More and more data came, of course, but initially we, we had some good, uh, good examples to share with them.
[00:18:18] Besjana Guri: Later, of course, we, we tried to engage, uh, the scientists because we knew that we, we would be much more stronger if we have. Their engagement and if we [00:18:30] have scientific arguments, because definitely we couldn’t continue with same, same things.
[00:18:36] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm. Mm.
[00:18:37] Besjana Guri: Um, and luckily we had at the time, two main scientists, one from Austria, uh, from Vienna University, professor Shimer and Miho from University of Tiana.
[00:18:49] Besjana Guri: They were the two main drivers of the scientists for Vosa. That became a movement. After some years because what they did is really special. We invited them to go [00:19:00] in the affected area where the one dam was going to be built in. In fact, in our case, two, two big dams were going to be
[00:19:07] Ben Hurst: built. Mm-hmm.
[00:19:08] Besjana Guri: For one week, they assessed different fields of biodiversity and hydro morphology and sedimentology of the river.
[00:19:15] Besjana Guri: And with their data, we could oppose the EIA report, the impact assessment reports. We could oppose in court. Uh, we, we could go in public with all the information that they gave. They, uh, [00:19:30] assessed the river very quickly, but the data that they. Came up were were amazing because they could find even new species to science in just one assessment.
[00:19:41] Besjana Guri: And that was a really very strong argument for us.
[00:19:44] Maryam Pasha: I wanna just go back and ask you this question, why did you personally get involved in this? Yeah. Why did you care? I guess? I guess, yeah. Why did you care? I mean, 12 years is a long time to, to work on something, and both of you said at the beginning that this is not like in the [00:20:00] middle.
[00:20:00] Maryam Pasha: Like, it’s not like your job, you know? Like you weren’t coming at this with a professional kind of hat on. So, so why, how did you get interested? How did you get to care about this? I
[00:20:13] Besjana Guri: think, I think, um, I also see myself that I have grown so much with this job.
[00:20:20] Ben Hurst: Mm.
[00:20:20] Besjana Guri: And it became a part of my life.
[00:20:23] Ben Hurst: Mm. But
[00:20:24] Besjana Guri: not only now, pretty soon, I would say.
[00:20:27] Ben Hurst: Mm mm
[00:20:28] Besjana Guri: Uh, I saw, I mean, [00:20:30] the, the, the first year was really decisive. Because the first year we, we launched the public campaign, we started to be in touch with the local people and to try to do the, the lobby work and so on. And in the first year we also dedicated more time while we set up the new organization, Theban and working focused mainly on the vosa.
[00:20:53] Besjana Guri: And everything was, that came in into our minds at that time was how to do it, what to do more, what to, so it [00:21:00] became a mission and day by day. So it was a, a, let’s say, um, a yearly mission and then it became a life mission.
[00:21:09] Ben Hurst: Mm.
[00:21:09] Besjana Guri: And I think it’s not, I don’t know if there was like a certain, certain moment.
[00:21:14] Ben Hurst: Mm.
[00:21:15] Besjana Guri: But every little moment that convinced and made me at least. Uh, work more and more and, and not just work. You know, it became more than just work.
[00:21:27] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:27] Besjana Guri: Mm-hmm. It is beyond the normal [00:21:30] work it beyond the eight hours. It’s a 24 hours job. It’s Right. Takes all the time and all your energy. But it has also, it fulfills you when you find something that fulfills you.
[00:21:43] Besjana Guri: You don’t think of, uh, quitting. You don’t think of, um, doing something else, you know?
[00:21:51] Challenges and triumphs in environmental activism
[00:21:51] Maryam Pasha: Mm mm I’m sure that, I’m sure that it was not an easy campaign to, to fight and to win. Will [00:22:00] you tell us a bit about some of the maybe moments that stand out for you, that either where you felt. Like, I don’t know if we’re gonna be able to do this, or where you felt a real sense of it.
[00:22:10] Maryam Pasha: I can’t believe we’re doing this. Yeah. I can’t believe we’re doing this. Yeah.
[00:22:13] Olsi Nika: Oh, there are plenty of this moments. But surely the campaign was not a linear path towards the success that’s, that’s. You know, for sure not the case. But, uh, it has been many obstacles on our way, many setbacks, many, you [00:22:30] know, deep disappointments that we said, okay, that’s it.
[00:22:33] Olsi Nika: It’s over. But when we started the campaign, one of the major hydropower was already the construction. It was owned by a guy that controlled the majority of the politics and politicians huge, or one of the biggest medias. It was. You know, really a tough and big guy, but then. We were there in the teeny, um, tiny mosquitoes in the room and trying to, to disturb and to [00:23:00] be on his way.
[00:23:02] Olsi Nika: But then we, uh, you know, it was really starting with a handful of people and then it was literally starting to grow and grow and grow. Of course, in a way, there had been many obstacles. One of them was the. Just one, one of the first case ever, uh, environmental case ever in the court where the court decided to cancel one hydropower.
[00:23:20] Olsi Nika: The government reissued another concession for another hydropower just 10 kilometers upstream. And ironically, the winner was the same company that [00:23:30] just lost. A week ago in the court, you can see how, how, how you feel after six years of campaigning and then, uh, you know, a huge victory in the court. And then one week later, you know, the big guy said that, no, no, no, no.
[00:23:44] Olsi Nika: I’m the one who decides here. So sit down and, and wait. Right? And you feel really small in this case, and it’s difficult to get up again and start walking. Uh, but you know, we were, uh. Always [00:24:00] have been this, the clear vision and then the principle of we came a long way so we cannot abandon and give up now.
[00:24:07] Olsi Nika: So we have to, we have to continue. And that has been the, the guiding principle on, I guess, in the campaign. But there have been many other disappointment from the beginning to the very end. Disappointment, seeing how. People trying to, to divide the local community. We have been witnessing many accusations in the media.
[00:24:29] Olsi Nika: Like, uh, these [00:24:30] guys are not perpetuate enough because they’re not wanting the government, sorry, the, the country to be developed. They want to so us to be dependent energy depending from neighboring enemy countries and so on and so forth. So we have been. Yes, many, many of these, and it’s a, it’s a continuous challenge, which is also currently now because La Vegas is over and, and efforts to preserve on the protective and also to to see the [00:25:00] national park well because it was like a dream for us and to see the national park, uh, happening and being operational on the ground.
[00:25:09] Maryam Pasha: I imagine that there were lots of very powerful interests, like you mentioned. Obviously the government is one, but the developers, people from outside the country, you know, will you tell us a bit about that, those pressures and how you had to navigate them?
[00:25:27] Olsi Nika: Yes, there have been precious, but we were [00:25:30] never been a target.
[00:25:30] Olsi Nika: Dr. Pressure in terms of. You know, from the developer, from the concrete companies like construction and so on. Uh, because we also have never them as a target, we, we always have as a target of government. And that’s, I think, uh, part of the, of the tactical success in the campaign. And that’s fair enough because, you know, all the hydropower would’ve been built in a concessionary terms [00:26:00] and in a contract, in a concessionary contract, there are two parties, right?
[00:26:04] Olsi Nika: So it’s the developer, which is usually the private party. And the public. Which is us, but we have given the representative card to the government and that’s where we comply and complain because our government is not representing us in the contract because it’s destroying the nature. It’s over exploiting the natural resources and so on.
[00:26:27] Olsi Nika: And so far, always in our [00:26:30] campaign has been. The decision makers and the government. However, there have been neural pressures not towards us. Yeah. But, uh, usually towards our rallies, our, you know, the local communities, some of the media as well, uh, that we have heard. But yeah, that is good tactic because there have been other campaigns, uh, in Albania that mostly, uh, just choosing the, the wrong target has led to the, to the failure.
[00:26:59] Maryam Pasha: I. [00:27:00] You talked a bit about using the courts, about bringing the communities together. I guess that’s my big question of like, how, like what was it that you were able to convince? Like, like how did you do this? What was it that led to this victory?
[00:27:17] The role of legal action in environmental protection
[00:27:17] Maryam Pasha: There is always this
[00:27:18] Olsi Nika: hesitation, uh, to go into the court, and especially in Albana because it’s a really specific country where the judicial system was.
[00:27:27] Olsi Nika: Uh, so corrupt, like you cannot [00:27:30] imagine. Like, you know, then there has been, uh, a really profound reform now in the judicial system, just to let you know that more than half of the, uh, judges and prosecutors are out of the system now because they were found correct. And taking a, an environmental. Case into these courts.
[00:27:52] Olsi Nika: Of course there would be a huge hesitation. And then was, and I think this was the root why, uh, nobody else [00:28:00] did, haven’t tried it before us. But there is also another, another good side of the medal I. That Albania has improved drastically the, uh, legal framework in terms of environment, and this is mainly because of the EU approximation and, and also, uh, and the process of, of, uh, being a member of eu.
[00:28:23] Olsi Nika: And it’s also hard to find any convention not only [00:28:30] on environment, but also on other, other sectors that banya is not part of it. So then as part of all the conventions, and having said this, you have a huge room, uh, you know, to challenge cases, environmental cases into these, uh, legal mechanisms. So basically you have a, a big advantage of using the environmental right.
[00:28:51] Olsi Nika: And, you know, having. Analyze this, you say, okay, let’s try. But the difficult part was finding the lawyer. Yes. That had been a real change, right? [00:29:00] Because it was difficult for any lawyer to stay against the government, and it was difficult to find a lawyer that had a clue on environmental legislation because usually the legislation is on a secondary third or priority.
[00:29:17] Olsi Nika: Lawyers than Doris. Yeah. And uh, yes, we managed to find one, uh, a good one, although that he had nothing to do with the environmental. Right. He was a criminal and he is, uh, one of the [00:29:30] famous criminal, uh, attorneys. So basically now the criminal code, but. Uh, it was, it was a big success as there had been many support from outside and even from us on the technical aspects, and we managed to file a lawsuit against the hydropower then to have the final decision from the court to prove us.
[00:29:50] Olsi Nika: Right. That created a huge, huge opportunity for many other cases to fall. Wow.
[00:29:56] Maryam Pasha: How does it feel? Like to [00:30:00] win something like this. Mm. And I say that with the context of you, you know, you just said it’s not over. We still have to like, protect this, this national park. And so, so talk to us about whether winning feels like an end point or does it just feel like another stop along the, the route of what you’re doing?
[00:30:19] Besjana Guri: Winning. I would say it gives even more responsibility. Mm-hmm. To do more. So of course it is an acknowledgement of [00:30:30] all the hard work and all the passion and dedication, and it proves that even when you think that you’re doing just your job, it’s not like that. It’s important also for other people. It’s not only important about you or about your country, but it’s important for the whole planet.
[00:30:48] Besjana Guri: So that’s, that enforces, you know that. But also it’s a great push. To continue doing what you know better, you know, what you know to do. [00:31:00] Um, and it’s a motivation even to take new initiatives, for instance. So definitely, I, I think this, this prize is, um, is a big opportunity for activists to elevate their work to, to increase their impact.
[00:31:20] Besjana Guri: For instance in Albania. I think that was, I mean, for us was a great, it was a surprise. It was something we never expected. Mm-hmm. But even for our [00:31:30] country, that was huge. Being the first Albanians to get the prize and I. I think it’s a great reminder to our government that the world is watching you and you don’t have to stay quiet.
[00:31:44] Besjana Guri: We did our part, we declared the national park, and now we will do whatever we want. No, that that shows that this is not the case. Yeah. The world is watching you and they want to see. What is happening? They [00:32:00] want to see how you’re implementing this park. They want to see how on the ground the park is going to be functional and is there an administration there?
[00:32:10] Besjana Guri: Is there infrastructure, signage, and so on? And are people happy with that? I mean, that’s such a,
[00:32:18] Maryam Pasha: that’s such an interesting way of thinking about, about it being, winning. Yeah, winning and, and I’m just, I guess I’m curious to know if you have any hopes for how this might [00:32:30] inspire other campaigners, other people, other communities, both locally.
[00:32:35] Maryam Pasha: In Romania or in the Balkans or also wide more widely, like, I guess a lot of people probably right now are feeling like it feels impossible, and I’m sure you’ve both maybe been at times when it’s felt impossible and I’m, I’m curious if there’s anything you’d wanna share.
[00:32:52] Besjana Guri: I. I think not only, I would say not only our case, but also the cases of other people, other winners, our other [00:33:00] prize winners are a great inspiration for everyone, all the activists that are fighting against some destructive projects and they, they want to protect their land and their river and their their mountain.
[00:33:14] Besjana Guri: It gives hope to see that they are still these nature guardians. They are still there and they’re fighting to, to protect our nature and to see successful stories. That’s even more [00:33:30] inspiring because we’ve seen, of course, um, many times that they are not successfully. Manage the, there are a lot of, uh, disappointments when it comes to nature activism.
[00:33:44] Ben Hurst: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:44] Besjana Guri: But having the successful stories, it definitely inspires everyone to continue to, to do what they’re doing and to never give up. So to stick to their plan. And I mean, in Albania, the Vosa [00:34:00] has been an inspirational campaign. For many other fights that are still going on, which we also are part of it, or are being led by other activists in Albania.
[00:34:12] Besjana Guri: But I would say also in the Balkans, we, we definitely can’t wait to see another Balcon river being protected as a wild river like the Una River. We, we are still hoping for the V to be. Uh, internationally protected because it’s a river that is [00:34:30] shared by Greece and Albania.
[00:34:31] Ben Hurst: Hmm.
[00:34:32] Besjana Guri: So there, there is so much to look forward, you know, after this
[00:34:37] Ben Hurst: incredible.
[00:34:39] Ben Hurst: I love it. I think I, I, well, I just, I also find it so inspiring to think that like, you know, like we always talk about everybody having their place in a movement and I feel like, I don’t know, like loads of marine biologists in, in real life, but I know loads of social workers and I think, I think it’s so cool that the two of you have done this together, like you found this thing that’s worth fighting for and [00:35:00] worth.
[00:35:00] Ben Hurst: Preserving and you’ve managed to like dedicate a, a large chunk of your life to doing that work, but you’ve also seen the fruits of that labor. I think it’s like such an important message, especially at a time like now where everybody feels so disempowered and nobody knows what they’re supposed to be doing.
[00:35:15] Ben Hurst: I think it’s like an incredible message. So thank you so much for, for chatting to us and thank you for sharing the story as well. It’s such an incredible thing that you’ve done.
[00:35:24] Maryam Pasha: Yeah, I, I couldn’t agree more, Ben. And I guess my last question then is what now?
[00:35:29] Ben Hurst: Yeah. [00:35:30] What’s next?
[00:35:31] Future goals and ongoing efforts
[00:35:31] Maryam Pasha: Next
[00:35:31] Olsi Nika: is, you know, for sure because it’s, uh, it’s a story with different chapters.
[00:35:39] Olsi Nika: We just closed the very first one. Mm-hmm. So managed to have the park established, but there are many others. A new one is already opened. Oh. It’s, it’s just ahead of us. So. Uh, the National Park has approved, has the approved, uh, management plan, [00:36:00] which is a guiding document of managing the park. Uh, it’s also, uh, very close to get assembled, uh, team of managers, so the administration of the national Park have then.
[00:36:15] Olsi Nika: So we are there to push more, uh, towards having an effective management on the, on the national park. Otherwise it’s, uh, you know, it’s not the fulfillment, but even more, uh, could be a bigger [00:36:30] risk that even, uh, that having just the park on paper, you know, because mm-hmm. That then create a dangerous precedent in our perspective.
[00:36:39] Olsi Nika: And second is, of course, uh, specific National Park is Europe’s first Wild National Park. And, uh, even technically speaking it, it comprises more into a core area. National Park. So having said this, this, our next objective is the park to [00:37:00] get, uh, enlarged and to include more mm-hmm. Free flow distributors and to, uh, and to the large, especially the buffer area around the park in order to avoid the pressures to get directly to the, to the core area, to the itself.
[00:37:17] Olsi Nika: Uh, the third one is to address all the pressures. To the national Park and it’s something that we have started to do. So we have identified map mapped already, the pressures, and we try to address how to [00:37:30] address them by the authorities, media, and other, other stakeholders. Uh. The other one of fourth one is of course the tent of the Vosa River, which is a protected area, but it’s not part of the VSA national part.
[00:37:46] Olsi Nika: So it’s a category four while the river is the category two. And this makes no sense because the tenile is integral part of the, of the same ecosystem. And honestly speaking is the most valuable part [00:38:00] of the, of the.
[00:38:02] Maryam Pasha: River and also so the work is never done. Incredible. Incredible. I love the work is never done.
[00:38:08] Maryam Pasha: Um, I hope that Ben and I can come visit, uh, the OSA one day and see your incredible work and see this national park. Um,
[00:38:15] Ben Hurst: yeah, see a real river. Yeah, my God. Can you imagine?
[00:38:19] Maryam Pasha: It would be amazing. We look forward to having you back in 10 years and seeing all the incredible work you’ve done. Make it five. Five years.
[00:38:26] Maryam Pasha: Five years, five goals. We’ll see you then. Thank you. [00:38:30] Thank you. Thank you guys for all the best.
[00:38:34] Closing Remarks and Credits
[00:38:34] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for joining us this week. We really hope you’ve enjoyed this episode.
[00:38:37] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s releases.
[00:38:42] Maryam Pasha: And why not reach out with your very own climate confessions?
[00:38:45] Ben Hurst: While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:38:49] Maryam Pasha: Now, let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the pod
[00:38:52] Ben Hurst: executive, produced by Josie Colter,
[00:38:54] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshty.
[00:38:56] Ben Hurst: Music, also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:38:58] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara [00:39:00] Cooper and Izzy Gladston.
[00:39:01] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:39:03] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:39:05] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha, and remember, stay curious.
