Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | RSS | Android
Eco-anxious –rejoice! This week’s episode is a salve for the eco-shaken, (i.e. all of us!?). Katharine K. Wilkinson returns to share her new framework for navigating eco-anxiety with Climate Curious co-hosts Ben Hurst and Maryam Pasha – and it starts by getting honest about the emotional weight of caring. We dig into why grief, fear, and exhaustion aren’t obstacles to climate action, but part of the path itself. Tune in for a delightful dollop of Katharine’s usual genius and generosity as she guides us from ache to action, and doubt to possibility. From footholds to wayfinding – learn why healing the planet starts at home… with healing yourself.
Get the book ‘Climate Wayfinding’ by Katharine K. Wilkinson: https://www.climatewayfinding.earth/book
Join the Climate Curious conversation on socials:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/climatecuriouspod/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@climatecuriouspod
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtF6xzNkVIczlDmVcH8FCMA
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/10996041/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TEDxLondon
Website: https://tedxlondon.com/podcast/
All other links: https://linktr.ee/climatecuriouspod
Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Offering our superpowers
00:42 Meet the guest
02:50 Why we feel stuck
05:27 Feelings as fuel
08:29 Why Katharine cares
11:38 Finding renewal spaces
14:36 Quaker clearness committee
18:17 Climate anxiety now
22:44 New book announcement
24:10 What Is Climate Wayfinding
26:12 All we can save program
27:15 From stuck to clarity
28:21 How the method evolved
30:26 Frameworks and proof
32:36 Power and joy superpowers
36:15 Reading circles dream
41:46 Mycelial nourishment vision
44:17 Resilience practices and tips
48:18 Stopping friendly fire
55:31 Closing thanks and credits
Offering Our Superpowers
[00:00:00] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Offering our superpowers. How do we get clearer about our gifts, our talents, the unique magic that we have to offer?
[00:00:12] Ben Hurst: This is Climate Curious, the podcast [00:00:15] for people who are bored, scared, or confused by climate. Change.
[00:00:19] Maryam Pasha: I’m Maryam Pasha, the director and curator at TEDxLondon, and the co-host of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:25] Ben Hurst: Hi, I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive [00:00:30] masculinities can look like and self-confessed climate normy.
[00:00:36] Maryam Pasha: Hey Ben.
[00:00:37] Ben Hurst: Hello. How are you? I’m good. I’m good. Am
[00:00:40] Maryam Pasha: I good? I’m very,
[00:00:40] Ben Hurst: I’m good.
[00:00:41] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Are you good?
Meet Our Guest
[00:00:42] Maryam Pasha: I’m very excited to, for this episode because I get to introduce you to someone who I met at TED last year and has become a very special guest and friend of this show. Ah. And I’m excited that they’re returning.
[00:00:55] Maryam Pasha: Um, and I just think. This is a conversa. I mean, I [00:01:00] desperately need this conversation right now and I think you might too. And I think our listeners might. Um, so let me tell you a little bit about our guest. Today
[00:01:10] Ben Hurst: look free.
[00:01:10] Maryam Pasha: Um, she is an incredible writer, a teacher, Katharine [00:01:15] K. Wilkinson. She is back to talk to us about her new concept and book called Climate Wayfinding.
[00:01:22] Maryam Pasha: And this is gonna be, I think, a really interesting conversation ’cause it’s really about how we can navigate. Some of that [00:01:30] anxiety and fear and distress around the realities of climate change, you know, and really a practical conversation. ’cause I think sometimes we can talk about it in theory, but then it’s like, okay, so I get it, but what do I do about it?
[00:01:41] Maryam Pasha: Again, I feel those things, but what do I do about it? And I think. [00:01:45] Katharine is gonna take us through some of that. Her book’s got some of that and we’re gonna be talking about like this, like emotional landscape we’re all in and this new framework she’s got of climate way finding and, and I’m just excited because I think, [00:02:00] I think we can feel really exhausted and lost sometimes, and.
[00:02:06] Maryam Pasha: To have someone who is, you know, who’s really thought about these things deeply with us is gonna be very special.
[00:02:12] Ben Hurst: Yeah, it sounds like it’s a gonna be a timely [00:02:15] conversation.
[00:02:16] Maryam Pasha: Very much so. Should we get started?
[00:02:18] Ben Hurst: Yeah, let’s dive in.
[00:02:19] Maryam Pasha: Hi Katharine. Hello friends. Hello. Oh, we are so excited for you to be here. Um, uh, I’m gonna, I’m, I’m, for people [00:02:30] listening, you’re not gonna know this, but I’m gonna show you a little rock that I made at Katharine’s amazing workshop, um, in Vancouver.
[00:02:38] Maryam Pasha: And it says, belonging. On it, and I love it so much. Um, and we’re gonna get into all [00:02:45] of that, but let’s, let’s start with a number that I really, really like and go from there.
Why We Feel Stuck
[00:02:50] Maryam Pasha: So, so right now, some really amazing data’s come out recently, right? That like 89% of people around the world want their government to act on climate.
[00:02:59] Maryam Pasha: And I [00:03:00] think that’s a really exciting number. And yet. When we actually think about it, and I think about people around me, people would feel emotionally paralyzed. Like, just like how can we have so like, we’ve people care and yet we dunno what to do. [00:03:15] And I’m just wondering like, is that how you are feeling?
[00:03:18] Maryam Pasha: Is that how you see people around yourself feeling? Like, let’s start at that moment of, of like this, maybe we call it burnout. I don’t know.
[00:03:28] Katharine K. Wilkinson: So I think this is really the [00:03:30] perfect place to start, Miriam, because wherever we are on our climate journeys, whether we are newly curious, uh, to, to lean into the, the umbrella of, of our, our conversation,
[00:03:41] Maryam Pasha: love it.
[00:03:42] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Or. Or we’ve been in the work a long [00:03:45] time. I think we can all understand that feeling of stuckness, right? That often arises, I think, out of a mix of distress, of overwhelm, of feeling. Maybe too small to matter. Maybe that nothing [00:04:00] we do could possibly put a dent in the. 50 some odd gigatons of greenhouse pollution that our global economy is producing every year.
[00:04:10] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And, and I think in some ways that feeling is really rational, right? Like [00:04:15] we are really small in the grand sweep of this enormous planet. And the fact that human society is creating the climate crisis tells us. We are also not too small to matter, right? [00:04:30] The very fact that this problem is a problem tells us that we have the power to change things.
[00:04:35] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And so I think we need spaces and practices and support for holding that question of what can I do or what can I do [00:04:45] now next more deeply, um, that are generative, right? That don’t just keep us swirling in that wondering, but actually help us work with it. Right. It’s a, it’s a powerful question that often has [00:05:00] lots of other questions.
[00:05:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: I think kind of nested within it, like, like a Russian doll about purpose and meaning and belonging. Um, and when we can, can go into the weeds of the questions, I think we [00:05:15] can find our way towards pathways of participation and contribution, um, that are really potent.
Feelings As Fuel
[00:05:27] Maryam Pasha: Do you think that, I mean, do you think that for a long [00:05:30] time, because I definitely have felt this in other issues I’ve worked on, like I’ve worked in human rights, I’ve worked on, um, Iranian human rights activism and immigration and refugee and all this different stuff, and there’s this feeling of like.
[00:05:44] Maryam Pasha: We [00:05:45] don’t have time for you to have feelings. Like, this is really, you know, this is really urgent. And or you say it to yourself like, this is selfish. Like, why am I, I’m not the one being thrown in jail. I’m not the one, you know, doing what I, I [00:06:00] don’t have time to be thinking about my emotions and my mental health.
[00:06:03] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. I’m gonna do the work. Do you think climate suffers from a similar, um, way of being?
[00:06:11] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Yeah, I mean I think there’s a bit of like, you know, who are we [00:06:15] to need to feel our feelings when there’s this really urgent challenge, whatever it may be, or many urgent challenges all colliding at once. Um, and, and I often go back to [00:06:30] just a few simple words from Audrey Lorde that our feelings are our most genuine sources of knowledge.
[00:06:39] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Our most powerful sources of knowledge. And so I think if we say like, [00:06:45] there’s no time to feel our feelings, we’re actually skipping a really important like somatic intelligence step, right? Which is that the things we are feeling have really important information to share and they [00:07:00] have really important fuel that can be tapped into.
[00:07:04] Katharine K. Wilkinson: But I think that depends on not sort of. Like shifting them off to the side as something inconvenient, but actually honoring [00:07:15] that they are at the heart of. The work that, that we might do, the action that we might take. And there’s a danger, right when we just sort of shove the feelings aside and don’t engage with them, which is that they generate that sense of [00:07:30] paralysis and stuckness, right?
[00:07:31] Katharine K. Wilkinson: They generate the burnout. They, um, they can actually show up in the work in really. Unhelpful ways, right? I think we can all imagine moments where we’ve been in an interaction with [00:07:45] a change agent, you know, movement leader of some kind, where you’re like, woo, that really feels like, you know. That, that doesn’t feel like it’s coming from like the healthiest place.
[00:07:57] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Right? And so it actually becomes, [00:08:00] I think, a source of risk for movements that have like long arcs of, of work to do. And really importantly, like we’ve gotta do it in relational webs. And so much of our emotional. [00:08:15] Kind of wherewithal and intelligence and capacity has to do with whether we can form those relationships of trust and support, um, that are so important for collective action.
Why Katharine Cares
[00:08:29] Ben Hurst: [00:08:30] Katharine, you and I have, have never met before, and so I’m super interested in like, why you care about this. Like, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t. ’cause I always feel like people like, um, write books about things for, for a range of different reasons. I’m super [00:08:45] interested to know, like, what brought you to this conversation?
[00:08:47] Ben Hurst: Is it like a, is this like a. Does it come from a personal place or does it come from like, uh, years of ob observing something around you? Or, or is there like some kind of moment that, that pushed you into talking about this [00:09:00] kind of stuff?
[00:09:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Ben, are you thinking about like climate generally or this Nexus specifically?
[00:09:06] Katharine K. Wilkinson: I,
[00:09:06] Ben Hurst: I was thinking about this Nexus specifically, but
[00:09:09] Katharine K. Wilkinson: access, yeah.
[00:09:09] Ben Hurst: But I would love for you to tell me about both, if you don’t mind. We’ve got time.
[00:09:14] Katharine K. Wilkinson: [00:09:15] We’ve got some time. Sure, sure. Um. Well, I, I think this nexus in particular about, you know, I think of it as like how we cultivate the human capacity that’s [00:09:30] needed for this moment, um, that frankly grew out of.
[00:09:35] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like 25 years of zigzagging around different spaces of climate engagement and climate work and feeling pretty [00:09:45] consistently like, wow, we’ve got like amazing science and we’re developing incredible policy and we’re running brilliant campaigns and somehow we’re not doing. Like an amazing job of tending to the [00:10:00] people who make all of that possible, right?
[00:10:02] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like without us, you know, none of it happens. Um, or, or, or it runs out of steam along the way. And so I think. I found [00:10:15] myself looking for spaces to like deeply reflect, to get re-energized, to renew, to kind of cultivate fresh ideas, um, to build those relationships [00:10:30] that I think have a lot to do with what keeps us in social change over time.
[00:10:35] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And I was often going to places that were. Like adjacent to climate, right? Like I didn’t see a lot of it happening within [00:10:45] the movement itself. Um, and frankly, if we understand that there is a leadership crisis at the heart of the climate crisis, you know, among, among many drivers, then. We’ve gotta [00:11:00] be really serious and really intentional and really invested in that cultivation of leadership because, you know, we’re up against really powerful interests with tons of resources, and I don’t [00:11:15] know what the theory of change.
[00:11:17] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Looks like if it’s not like a huge upwelling of people. And, and to your point, Miriam, a huge translation of that. 89% of people who care and want to see action and [00:11:30] are worried into engagement. Um. In, in every corner of, of human society.
Finding Renewal Spaces
[00:11:38] Ben Hurst: Where, where did you go? Like, where were the spaces that you, that you went to?
[00:11:41] Ben Hurst: Because I, in my mind, like I, I work in gender equality and I [00:11:45] often think particularly in masculinities, like considering we’re all men talking about this stuff, we’re not very good at doing the practice of looking after ourselves. So like I always wonder like where people go for that kind of stuff. Like in terms of, I guess sectors, I don’t know.
[00:11:59] Ben Hurst: [00:12:00] Yeah.
[00:12:00] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Yeah. You know, that’s so interesting then. ’cause one of the places that I went at one juncture was to, uh, do work with a group called Inside Circle, which grew out of a, a men’s group in New Folsom [00:12:15] Prison in California. Um, and. You would think, like, why would you go there to do your, your climate work?
[00:12:22] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, but what was so fascinating to me, I did a kind of long weekend retreat with them, [00:12:30] and a lot of times what I understood from those men is that the most easily accessible emotion for, for men in the the new Folsom Circle was anger. Was rage and a lot of times there was a lot of like burning through the anger and the [00:12:45] rage to get to the other feelings that sit beneath it.
[00:12:48] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Right? For me, climate. Crisis, ecological, unraveling what it’s doing to our communities sends me into a place of deep grief and [00:13:00] grief can be like, you know, really thick molasses, like it can just sort of suck you in and hold you down. Um, and what I learned in that circle was like, they sort of provoked me, these men, and [00:13:15] they helped me move from grief.
[00:13:17] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Into the sort of like burn it out, uh, kind of anger vibes. That actually then left me back in a place of feeling like, okay, like my courage is sort of like fired [00:13:30] back up and, um, and I’m ready, I’m ready to roll. So that was one example. I did, um, another retreat for, so it was years ago now, over a decade ago now with, uh.
[00:13:41] Katharine K. Wilkinson: A Quaker author and, and teacher, Parker [00:13:45] Palmer, who every year would, would run a circle for quote unquote young leaders and, and activists. And again, that was not a climate specific space, but there was this shared ground, [00:14:00] whatever we were working on, whether it was education or public health. Um. That people came in, like sort of barely, barely with any, to use a fossil fuel metaphor, gas left in the tank.
[00:14:13] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Right. Um, [00:14:15] and, and feeling like, again, in all of those spaces we’re short on kind of this access to to, to support and renewal with one another.
[00:14:28] Ben Hurst: I hear that, I always hear so much about the [00:14:30] Quakers. After I come to one of your retreats, I’m gonna, mm-hmm. I’m gonna go and check out the Quakers. ’cause apparently they, they get it.
[00:14:35] Ben Hurst: They get it. They’re pretty good at
Quaker Clearness Committee
[00:14:36] Katharine K. Wilkinson: listen, the Quakers, like they, we did a practice on that retreat called a clearness committee. Have you heard about this, Ben? No. [00:14:45] Okay. So this is a practice that like Quakers have been doing since, you know. Like before the industrial revolution, I think. And it’s basically like there’s one person, you know, Ben, maybe you arrive and you’ve got a big question you’re holding or a big decision you’re [00:15:00] trying to make.
[00:15:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And this is a structure to just help you be in deeper dialogue with yourself. So you know, four or five or six others would be there in a circle. You share what? What you’re grappling with, and then [00:15:15] their entire job is to offer you generous questions that can help you be in that deeper conversation with yourself.
[00:15:25] Katharine K. Wilkinson: No advising, no interpreting, just offering. [00:15:30] Questions. And if they serve you great, you pick ’em up and you sort of talk through them to them the questions. Um, and if they don’t, you just like, let ’em float on down the stream. Um, and I found that to be like. [00:15:45] The simplest kind of technology, if you will, but like the most profound experience of, of human generosity both ways, right?
[00:15:56] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Because people find it to be incredibly generous for [00:16:00] you to share deeply. Yeah. What’s going on with you? To be someone who’s been grappling alone. To suddenly be held in that way in community is like really extraordinary. And it’s not rocket science, right? It’s like we could just do this anywhere, anytime.
[00:16:14] Katharine K. Wilkinson: [00:16:15] You know?
[00:16:15] Ben Hurst: I like that. It’s like a, a therapeutic party. That’s a good one.
[00:16:18] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Yeah. So the Quakers, I know they, they, they’ve been, they’re like, yeah, yeah, we got tools for this. We’ll
[00:16:25] Ben Hurst: help, we’ll help you.
[00:16:28] Maryam Pasha: I like the idea that [00:16:30] you kind of went around to things that are not just in your own like space, world, industry, whatever you wanna call it, to find
[00:16:40] Katharine K. Wilkinson: like.
[00:16:41] Maryam Pasha: Ways forward. I just feel like that in and [00:16:45] of itself is so important and maybe can help if people are feeling stuck, that maybe the solutions don’t like, or the, not the solutions, but the, the path forward doesn’t lie here.
[00:16:57] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Where you’ve
[00:16:58] Maryam Pasha: been and what you’re doing.
[00:16:59] Ben Hurst: [00:17:00] Yeah.
[00:17:00] Maryam Pasha: Yeah,
[00:17:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And I’m really passionate that we can cultivate more of this like right within the climate movement and, and I’m certainly not by any stretch, the only [00:17:15] person thinking about this.
[00:17:16] Katharine K. Wilkinson: There’s an amazing partnership that Christiana Figueres and Global Optimism built with Plum Village, which is the engaged. Buddhist community of Thi Hanh, and they’ve got an amazing online course called [00:17:30] Zen in the Art of Saving the Planet, and they’ve been holding retreats for climate and nature leaders.
[00:17:34] Katharine K. Wilkinson: I just think that work is extraordinary and so important, and it’s still like a kind of an outlier, right? Um, that I, [00:17:45] I joined a retreat with them last year and I thought, you know, this is one of the most. Like loving, caring experiences I’ve ever had in climate work and. [00:18:00] That is amazing, and it’s a little bit sad, right?
[00:18:04] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like we should feel like we’re loving and caring for each other along this journey because this is hard work to do. It’s hard to show up for a big. Existential [00:18:15] crisis every day.
[00:18:15] Ben Hurst: Yeah. It’s not, it’s not easy.
Climate Anxiety Now
[00:18:17] Ben Hurst: I, I would, I’m so interested also to know what you think climate anxiety looks like in 2026, because I feel like when we started this podcast, it was very, like, to me, I understood climate anxiety as like information overwhelm.
[00:18:32] Ben Hurst: Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Like it was just, there’s too much information. I don’t know what’s going on, and so I feel anxious, but it feels like maybe it’s changed into like it’s morphed into something slightly different. Mm-hmm. Like you’ve mentioned anger, and you’ve mentioned [00:18:45] grief, which definitely feel like they are more a part of it than they were.
[00:18:49] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:18:49] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Four
[00:18:49] Ben Hurst: years ago.
[00:18:52] Katharine K. Wilkinson: You know, I think that heady scramble that you’re talking about, Ben, I think that’s still totally part of it, right? Um, [00:19:00] that there’s just, and, and, and often though the kind of climate, um, conversation we’re being invited into still is often a very heady conversation. Let me give you some science, give you some facts, you know.
[00:19:13] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Here’s some more bad [00:19:15] news coming your way. Right?
[00:19:16] Ben Hurst: It’s bad. It’s bad.
[00:19:16] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, there’s, there’s still a lot of graphs. Yeah, there’s a lot of graphs. Um, uh, and I think as the climate crisis continues, more and more people have had a personal [00:19:30] experience, right. With extreme weather, with the losses that come with fire, with storms.
[00:19:36] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Right. Like it’s, it’s touching us, I think, more, more intimately because the. Problem is getting worse and, and it’s [00:19:45] showing up everywhere. Um, so I think that’s part of it. And I think that all of the work around like climate accountability, right? Like why are we in this mess? Who has been making decisions [00:20:00] that have.
[00:20:00] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Gotten us into this very snarly situation like that provokes the anger, the rage, the sense of betrayal, right? Is one thing that we hear in polling of young people, that they feel betrayed by the leaders of [00:20:15] business and, uh, government, et cetera. And that to me makes sense, right? Because it’s not like, oh, drought turns out all of this burning of fossil fuels is a problem.
[00:20:29] Katharine K. Wilkinson: We have known [00:20:30] this for longer than I’ve been alive. Right? Um, and so, you know, but, but that was. As Al Gore has said, an inconvenient truth, right? So there was all of this very deliberate, very [00:20:45] well-funded work to confuse us to dissuade. You know, leaders from action to buyout politicians. Um, and that should piss us off because we didn’t have to be where we are.
[00:20:59] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And now we’ve [00:21:00] all gotta find our way.
[00:21:01] Ben Hurst: Yeah.
[00:21:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Find our way through this.
[00:21:02] Ben Hurst: Yeah. It’s like all the feelings you have when you realize you’ve been lied to for ages, right. It’s like just a horrible,
[00:21:07] Katharine K. Wilkinson: totally
[00:21:08] Ben Hurst: horrible
[00:21:09] Katharine K. Wilkinson: season. You know, you layer on a little bit of [00:21:15] authoritarianism, you layer on global violence and conflict, right?
[00:21:19] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And then, you know, climate is just one of kind of a, what, what I think feels like a bit of a gathering chaos to, to a lot of [00:21:30] people.
[00:21:34] Katharine K. Wilkinson: What a time, what a time to be alive.
[00:21:35] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that sounds, it just sounds so familiar what you’re describing. I think it probably will to a lot of people and I think it makes you tired.
[00:21:44] Ben Hurst: Yeah. [00:21:45]
[00:21:45] Maryam Pasha: I think that’s one of the things I have. I have, um, uh, felt, yeah. Recently, particularly for a long time.
[00:21:55] Maryam Pasha: It’s just this, it’s a constant marriage. And, and, and I think [00:22:00] that’s one of the things that, um, I. Maybe in my darker moments I feel as deliberate. Like I feel like I feel I get this and, and maybe that’s where it comes from, that anger and place of blaming where you feel [00:22:15] like, well, of course they’re trying to wear us down.
[00:22:17] Maryam Pasha: Of course they’re trying to make us tired because when we’re tired and we’re sad and we’re frustrated, we just can’t do.
[00:22:25] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Right.
[00:22:25] Maryam Pasha: Um,
[00:22:26] Katharine K. Wilkinson: right.
[00:22:26] Maryam Pasha: You know, and whether it’s deliberate or not, it does feel like [00:22:30] very convenient for kind of the forces that maybe are not having our planet’s best, uh, us and our planet’s, you know, interests at heart that we are starting to feel this way.
[00:22:42] Maryam Pasha: Um,
[00:22:42] Katharine K. Wilkinson: totally
[00:22:43] Maryam Pasha: last time.
New Book Announcement
[00:22:44] Maryam Pasha: Katharine, we had you on this podcast, you and I, you, you were talking. I know
[00:22:48] Katharine K. Wilkinson: what, what a lucky, what a lucky little duckling to get to come
[00:22:52] Maryam Pasha: do this twice
[00:22:53] times,
[00:22:53] Ben Hurst: two times.
[00:22:54] Maryam Pasha: Well, no, for me, what of the lucky person that I got to do is talk to you twice? Um, I feel like [00:23:00] today is a day I need this conversation.
[00:23:01] Maryam Pasha: Um, I. We talked about the, the concept of, of climate way finding. And, and for those of you who haven’t heard that episode, I recommend you go back and you listen to it. The episode is called, um, [00:23:15] uh, what is it called? Hold on, I have it here. Oh yeah. The episode is called How to Find Your Climate Foothold. So go back and do that.
[00:23:22] Maryam Pasha: But you’ve got a new book. It’s coming out. Um, it’s one of the reasons we get to talk to you and congratulations. We were [00:23:30] talking about this concept of it. Yeah.
[00:23:33] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Oh yes. I just, gorgeous. I just, it just came. Um,
[00:23:37] Maryam Pasha: oh, that’s exciting. Just this one little
[00:23:38] Katharine K. Wilkinson: advance copy. I know, because when we spoke, I hadn’t even, I hadn’t taken a, a [00:23:45] sabbatical yet to write it.
[00:23:45] Katharine K. Wilkinson: So a, A lot happened. A lot has happened since then.
[00:23:50] Maryam Pasha: Finishing a book is a big deal. Holding it in your hands is a big deal. So first of all, congratulations on that.
[00:23:58] Ben Hurst: Yeah, well done.
[00:23:59] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Thanks friend. [00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Maryam Pasha: And
[00:24:00] Katharine K. Wilkinson: thanks.
[00:24:01] Maryam Pasha: Sorry. Um, but I want us, so the book is called Climate Way Finding, right?
What Is Climate Wayfinding?
[00:24:10] Maryam Pasha: Tell us about this concept and how you came to it.
[00:24:17] Katharine K. Wilkinson: So. You know, we, we were just unpacking this, like, what are the sources of, of climate anxiety, right? And the way that I sometimes sum it up is that it feels like we are living [00:24:30] increasingly in a world where our maps don’t work. And that is true quite literally, right? As like coastlines slip beneath rising seas.
[00:24:41] Katharine K. Wilkinson: It’s true. As you know, an entire town or [00:24:45] neighborhood can go up in flames. A forest can be raised, right? Like literally our maps are having a hard time. I think keeping up with the ways that. Change is unfolding physically on the planet. [00:25:00] But I think we also feel the way that other kinds of maps, right, our inherited family maps, our cultural maps, our social maps, our maps, that whether consciously or unconsciously we’ve used to [00:25:15] navigate.
[00:25:15] Katharine K. Wilkinson: You know, the questions of, of human existence, right? Um, that they, they kind of aren’t quite meeting the moment. And I, you know, we can and should continue to [00:25:30] have maps. Maps are a, are a helpful thing. Um, but I think we’re actually in a moment where we need to really. Build our navigational muscles, so to speak, like our capacities for orienting [00:25:45] and continuing to find our way in a world that’s just going to keep changing and is going to be changing at such a rapid pace.
[00:25:54] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And so that’s kind of where the, the idea of climate wayfinding comes from, that like, we’re finding ourselves [00:26:00] at unexpected crossroads and trying to figure out. Like which, which way do I turn? Which path do I do I take? Um, and before this was a book, it was a program.
All We Can Save Program
[00:26:12] Katharine K. Wilkinson: So I run the All We Can Save Project, which grew out of another book.
[00:26:17] Katharine K. Wilkinson: All We Can Save an anthology of Writings by Women climate Leaders.
[00:26:23] Maryam Pasha: Which
[00:26:23] Katharine K. Wilkinson: if
[00:26:24] Maryam Pasha: you have not read, if you have not read this book, I just want you to put it on your, on your list to read.
[00:26:29] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Oh, [00:26:30] thanks.
[00:26:30] Maryam Pasha: It is absolutely incredible. Okay. Sorry.
[00:26:33] Katharine K. Wilkinson: It’s a what? It’s a really, it is a really special book, I have to say. Um, essays, poetry, art.
[00:26:39] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like all the good stuff. All the good stuff is in there. Um, yeah, so, so Climate Way [00:26:45] finding, uh, became a program that we ran at the All We Can Save Project, and then over the last couple of years we’ve trained about 90 facilitators from. Something like 75 colleges and universities [00:27:00] across the US and Canada to take that program and run it with young people who I think are among the many of us who are grappling in this maps coming up short situation.
[00:27:13] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um. [00:27:15]
From Stuck to Clarity
[00:27:15] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And it’s been really exciting to see how this process that we use of looking inward with care, looking outward, with curiosity and looking forward with courage, can take people from that place of feeling stuck. Really murky, really overwhelmed into a sense of clarity. Direction, possibility, maybe even a little joy.
[00:27:40] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And as you said, Miriam, finding those footholds for action [00:27:45] going forward.
[00:27:48] Ben Hurst: Oh, I, I feel like when you’re talking, I can feel like wisdom permeating from your body. Do you know what I mean? Like, you just feel so wise. You feel, you feel like you know what you’re [00:28:00] talking about, which I love, I personally really enjoy.
[00:28:03] Ben Hurst: Um, I’m so interested in like, when, how did you figure this out? Like where, when did you, when did you real, has it been this way the whole time for you? Is it, have you always seen it like this? Or [00:28:15] is this. A, a journey that Slack evolved and changed for you over time?
[00:28:20] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Hmm.
How the Method Evolved
[00:28:21] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Well, first of all, Ben, I, I have to say, I like, I can’t imagine a better compliment than being, being wise or someone who gives off the air of Wise.
[00:28:32] Katharine K. Wilkinson: I’m, and
[00:28:33] Ben Hurst: that is the wise answer,
[00:28:34] Katharine K. Wilkinson: really moved. Really, like, really moved. So thank you. Um, and, um, yeah, I, you know, I think in a lot of [00:28:45] ways. This, this program and this book is kind of a knitting together of what I have learned, discovered often, like tried for myself along, along this path, [00:29:00] and also brings in some practices that.
[00:29:04] Katharine K. Wilkinson: I’ve learned from others that have been incredibly generative. So part of this was creation and a lot of it I think was synthesis. Um, whether, you [00:29:15] know, take something like, um, I. This idea of of kindred community, right? Of of who’s out there that feels like, you know, we’re in some way kind of traveling in the same, in the same direction.
[00:29:29] Katharine K. Wilkinson: People that we [00:29:30] might get into what my late Congressman John Lewis called. Good trouble, necessary trouble, um, and. I, I did, like years ago, I did this sort of like creative mapping exercise of, you [00:29:45] know, of what my kindred community and what my sort of context for action looked like. That’s been, you know, evolved and adapted as an exercise.
[00:29:54] Katharine K. Wilkinson: In the book, there’s an amazing woman, Nikki Silvestri, who has been an [00:30:00] advisor for the All We Can Save Project, and she taught me a practice of. Kind of visioning work that is out on a three year horizon, which turns out to be a really unlocking period of time, [00:30:15] right. Far enough out that things are possible.
[00:30:17] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, not so far that like you can’t actually get there. Um, there’s an adaptation of that visioning practice in, in the book.
Frameworks and Proof
[00:30:26] Katharine K. Wilkinson: So it’s, it’s a range of, it’s a range of things, but I, I’m kind, I’m like a recovering. Social scientist, um, a as well. And so I often kind of think in frameworks and so that inward outward forward is a framework.
[00:30:43] Katharine K. Wilkinson: In the book, [00:30:45] there’s another framework that we call the eight Dynamics of climate engagement, which again, tries to kind of bring into, you know, comprehensible form. Like what are the things that actually do help [00:31:00] us? S not just engage on climate, but do it in deep sustained and courageous ways. So, so there’s a lot of that kind of, I don’t know, simplifying architecture, maybe [00:31:15] that’s, that’s in the book.
[00:31:16] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um. And all of it has been really thoroughly tested because we’ve run this program now with hundreds of people. There are facilitators running it in dozens of places, and we’re learning a [00:31:30] lot. Um, almost every week we get more data back from participants in the program. So it’s not just like, here, I think this might help you be right here.
[00:31:39] Katharine K. Wilkinson: It’s in a book, you know, try this. Um, I think it’s always good to know like [00:31:45] you’re getting something that is. Like a proven process. Right. And there may be parts of it that really work for some people, and there may be parts that others are like, oh, that’s a little too woo, or that’s a little too, you know, whatever.
[00:31:56] Katharine K. Wilkinson: But I think there is, there are some [00:32:00] things generative here for, for just about anyone.
[00:32:04] Ben Hurst: It’s one of the things I love about, I don’t read loads of books. It’s one of the things I love about books is that like when, when you have a book in your hand to you, it’s like, I paid 7 99 for this book and I’ve got it.
[00:32:14] Ben Hurst: [00:32:15] But it’s like, yeah. A person’s whole life experience and years and years of all of the stuff that they’ve learned, lived through, studied research Yeah. Goes into this, but is there like a, is there a framework that was like, is there one that you, you’d like more than all the others? Is, [00:32:30] is there one that was like the, the hardest one to learn?
[00:32:32] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like a, like a a favorite, yeah, a favorite of all of these?
Power and Joy Superpowers
[00:32:36] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, I. I don’t know if this was the hardest to learn, but I think it is the one that like brings me the most delight, and this is from the session in the program or the chapter in the book that’s about offering our superpowers. Like how do we get clearer about our gifts, our talents, like the unique magic that we have to offer.
[00:33:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And this, again, is something I did for myself years ago, and I was like, okay, like basically we wanna be more like life force, right? Like we wanna be more like this amazing life that is just making more life [00:33:15] on, on this planet. And, and what is that? And I was like, and think at the human level that is something like a nexus of power and joy.
[00:33:24] Katharine K. Wilkinson: So not like, not like hierarchical structural power, but that feeling of like. [00:33:30] Power kind of welling up within you, and then joy, right? Delight, um, bliss even. And I was like, I think when I’m like operating, doing something, experiencing something, and I’ve got that [00:33:45] sense of power and joy happening, like that might be my most useful.
[00:33:51] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Beneficial contribution. Right? Like, not that those are the only things I do. Like, you know, sometimes you just gotta do the laundry or what, whatever
[00:33:58] Ben Hurst: that ticket. Yeah. [00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Katharine K. Wilkinson: But like a little more power, a little more joy, like the more you can be in that space. And um, and that’s been such a fun one to see unlock things for people, um, in the program.
[00:34:13] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like, I remember our [00:34:15] very first in, in-person pilot. There was a, a woman who worked at a big environmental NGO and she was kind of a junior staff member there. And sh in the, in the sharing, after we did this guided [00:34:30] meditation and creative mapping, she said, you know, at first I thought it might be possible that I’ve never felt power.
[00:34:39] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And then I thought about how it feels to throw a Frisbee. [00:34:45] Right. And it’s like you think that throwing a Frisbee has nothing to do with climate, right? Like, like what, what, what? But actually that sort of somatic. Again, that somatic intelligence of like, [00:35:00] oh yeah, I know how that feels in my body. Okay. Then I can start to tap into other things that maybe like aren’t quite as juicy as that, but like, take me, take me in that [00:35:15] direction.
[00:35:15] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, and then Joy is interesting, right? Because similar to what you were saying Miriam, about like, how can we take the time to, you know, go be in our fields? Like, who am I to feel joy when there’s so much [00:35:30] harm that is just like rolling every freaking day? Um, and, and yet Joy I think, has so much to do with how we keep going, right?
[00:35:42] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, and if we. [00:35:45] Like close off joy also. How will we ever throw a party anyone wants to come to? Right. Like, and that’s the whole thing about a movement is you’re trying to get people to come in and participate. Right. And [00:36:00] contribute. And if it all just seems like dower, finger wagging graph showing, you know, whatever, it’s like, why would you wanna do climate?
[00:36:08] Katharine K. Wilkinson: That seems horrible.
[00:36:10] Ben Hurst: No one’s coming to the party. Yeah.
[00:36:11] Maryam Pasha: No,
[00:36:12] Katharine K. Wilkinson: nobody. [00:36:15]
Reading Circles Dream
[00:36:15] Maryam Pasha: Do you, is there something, because I mean, what I, what I get, the sense I get about this book is that it’s a deeply practical book as well, as well as being like thoughtful and giving people a chance to reflect. It also allows you to actually like be active maybe is [00:36:30] a better word to think about it.
[00:36:30] Maryam Pasha: Yes. And I’m just wondering, what would you really love for people to take away once they read? Like what is your like dream scenario as an author for people who read this book?
[00:36:43] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Oh man. [00:36:45] Well first of all, you are exactly right. Uh, I feel like I can say this. Having written and edited a number of books that are just books you read, this is very much a book that you can do also that you can.
[00:36:59] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Play [00:37:00] with, it’s got, you know, journaling prompts for free writing, and it’s got, you know, these interactive frameworks and it’s got what we call step out exercises. So kind of things to do beyond the page if you want to. You [00:37:15] could absolutely just sit down and read it. Hopefully,
[00:37:17] Ben Hurst: you know, you’ll find beautiful essays and beautiful
[00:37:20] Katharine K. Wilkinson: poetry and that’ll be delightful.
[00:37:23] Katharine K. Wilkinson: But I think my, my biggest hope is that this is a book that people read and do together. So. [00:37:30] When all we can save came out, I designed something called All We Can Save Circles, which was a kind of reading group experience and people like journeyed through that together and some of those circles from five, six years ago [00:37:45] are still continuing, or they’ve grown from four people into, for example, in Atlanta there’s now a network of like 600 women in sustainability.
[00:37:52] Katharine K. Wilkinson: That started with a a little all we can save circle during the pandemic. And in this book I [00:38:00] built, uh, reading group agendas, what we call gather agendas, right into every chapter. So you can go and read it, you can do those free writing prompts, and then you can come together with. [00:38:15] Friends or colleagues or collaborators and hopefully have a very different kind of experience.
[00:38:22] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And, and, and going back to Ben, like my searching for where can I find these spaces of nourishment and [00:38:30] support. Adjacent to climate. This is meant to equip people to create those various spaces. And, um, it’s pretty, you know, the agendas are simple. You don’t need to be like an an expert facilitator to be able [00:38:45] to, to run them.
[00:38:46] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, but ultimately I think they do not just like tending the emotional, spiritual root of this work, but tending the relational root of it Also. [00:39:00] That’s the dream, like thousands of reading circles. That’s the dream.
[00:39:04] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. I love that. And I love this idea that, you know, um, and I think Ben, you and I have maybe a part of our whole lives have been this, I don’t know, wanna speak for [00:39:15] you, but
[00:39:16] Katharine K. Wilkinson: you know me
[00:39:16] Maryam Pasha: if you can’t find.
[00:39:19] Maryam Pasha: Um, you guys are so
[00:39:20] Katharine K. Wilkinson: cute.
[00:39:22] Maryam Pasha: If you can’t find the space, you, you can create it like you have to make it. Yeah. I think it’s a really, it’s really [00:39:30] unlocking and it’s really powerful the moment you realize that yet, you know what? Sometimes those spaces don’t exist, but there is nothing stopping you, making them and all of those things you think that are in the way.
[00:39:44] Maryam Pasha: Are actually [00:39:45] not in the way because no one expects you to build like a movement of a million people, you know, whatever, in like two minutes. Yeah. But, but like six people sitting around a kitchen table can all of a sudden feel like community and [00:40:00] belonging in a way that
[00:40:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Yeah,
[00:40:01] Maryam Pasha: you never even imagined. And then there’s so much that can come from that.
[00:40:06] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Totally and these kinds of spaces that like seem really small in the face of [00:40:15] like the scale of planetary disruption. When we look at social movement history, we see how important. These small, intimate, deep spaces are right. If we want those big moments of like the march with a million [00:40:30] people or, um, you know, or the big kind of legislative win or whatever it might be.
[00:40:37] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, where a lot of that begins is in these kinds of often invisible, [00:40:45] smaller spaces that, you know, we can all contribute to cultivating.
[00:40:54] Maryam Pasha: I think it’s just so hard for people to believe that, but it’s one of the reasons, kind of, you said earlier, you joked earlier that you’re like a [00:41:00] recovering social scientist, but it’s, it’s one, it’s one of the things I love about.
[00:41:06] Maryam Pasha: You, you as an author writing this kind of book is that it’s not, it’s not just your experience, it’s not just the experience of these hundreds of groups and [00:41:15] people that have gone out, but it’s the experience of you looking around at history and at movements and, and bringing it all together. And like we get to, to benefit from that.
[00:41:25] Maryam Pasha: It’s like what Ben said is like, you buy a book for whatever, a book costs in this case I know [00:41:30] Wildly very, yes. Um. 700 pounds you get. So you 700 pounds and you get so much. I mean, I just, yeah, I, I think that’s kind of incredible.
[00:41:43] Ben Hurst: Yeah, super powerful. [00:41:45] Super powerful.
Mycelial Nourishment Vision
[00:41:46] Ben Hurst: Um, what, is there a, is there like a, a, um, the answer to this I feel is gonna be no, I feel that maybe you’ve already answered this in a way that is much more open, but is there like a, um, a specific action?
[00:42:00] Ben Hurst: That you hope comes, or, or a movement that you hope is birthed out of people gathering around their kitchen tables and, and, and reading this book or having the conversation together? Mm. Is there like a, a vision of the future that you imagine [00:42:15] coming from this?
[00:42:16] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Mm, I mean, I really hope this is, I, I hope this book is like a little bundle of.
[00:42:29] Katharine K. Wilkinson: [00:42:30] Nourishment that kind of circuits through like the mycelial web of the climate community, right? That like, I don’t know that it’s about like big new this or a [00:42:45] fresh vision as much as it is like. Like sending goodness into the people and the places and the efforts and the campaigns that are already in motion are already being contemplated.
[00:42:59] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like it, it [00:43:00] might unlock some totally new things and fantastic. Um, but I think it’s really about. Like that mycelial web kind of caring for itself? Um, I think if people felt stronger and [00:43:15] clearer and more connected and more courageous in their engagement with climate from like the tiniest step to, you know, the biggest undertaking, I think that would be.
[00:43:27] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Really amazing, um, [00:43:30] because we don’t have any shortage of people who care. Um, but we do have a shortage of people who are able to turn care into contribution and do that again and again and again over time.
[00:43:43] Ben Hurst: Yeah. And it [00:43:45] feels like, it feels like a big, um, permission giving exercise, right? Like I, ’cause I, I.
[00:43:50] Ben Hurst: It’s, to me, this strikes me as one of those issues that everybody cares about because they, because it impacts everyone, but people feel like it’s maybe a bad [00:44:00] thing to care to openly about the wellbeing of people in, in a movement, for example. Um, and, and maybe that’s, maybe that’s an important thing, is just somebody to be able to say, no, you can, like, you can care about this and this is how you do it [00:44:15] in community with other people.
[00:44:16] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Um.
Resilience Practices and Tips
[00:44:17] Ben Hurst: I’m, I’m also interested, I guess for our listeners, for the people that already, so we have like different audiences that listen to this podcast, but for the audience that are already engaged, they’re active, they’re doing stuff.
[00:44:31] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:44:31] Ben Hurst: What, do you have any top tips? First tip is get the book, obviously.
[00:44:37] Ben Hurst: Second tip, second tip, third tip, fourth tip. Do you have any ideas of how people can CR start to create those [00:44:45] spaces in their communities? For supporting emotional resilience or,
[00:44:51] Katharine K. Wilkinson: um, yeah,
[00:44:51] Ben Hurst: yeah. Alongside doing the work, how do, how do we totally look after ourselves and each other?
[00:44:57] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Mm. Yeah. I, I think I wanna affirm [00:45:00] that for a lot of us who’ve kind of like grown up in this space or in this movement, like.
[00:45:07] Katharine K. Wilkinson: We often got a lot of investment around what we know and yeah, we didn’t often [00:45:15] get as much investment in like, how do we be Yeah. In this, right? Um, and so, you know, I think for anyone who’s feeling like, huh, I might like, I might have some, I might have some, some, some, [00:45:30] you know, some, some work to do there.
[00:45:32] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Like, yeah, me too. Um, me too. And, and so I think, you know, if you kind of journey through this book and the practices in this book solo or you [00:45:45] do them with others, you will come away with approaches and practices that like you continue, you can continue to use over time. Um, and again, like some of that is.[00:46:00]
[00:46:01] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Small stuff like a, you know, a five minute guided meditation where we’re invited to like greet our climate emotions and not try to [00:46:15] like shove them away. Can be really useful. And then in the future when you find yourself in a space of like, huh, I think there’s some emotional matter, right? Like in this space and, and we need to, to work with it.
[00:46:29] Katharine K. Wilkinson: [00:46:30] You could come, come back to that, right? If you’ve got a team, let’s say, that you’re working with and it’s like. What do we need? Like what do we need to be doing for each other? Right now you can check in on those eight dynamics of climate engagement and have a conversation like, oh wow, [00:46:45] we’re, we’re feeling really strong on, you know, on like our connection to one another.
[00:46:51] Katharine K. Wilkinson: But man, we’re feeling super low on possibility, power, and joy. So, so how do we then, how do we then invest in [00:47:00] that? Um, and I just think. Like whoever you are, wherever you are, if you’ve got people that you’re doing this, this work with kind of taking on, you know? I know it’s like, oh my God, are [00:47:15] you seriously adding one more thing to this infinite to-do list that I’ve got?
[00:47:18] Katharine K. Wilkinson: But like, if you’re willing to, to kind of take on like trying to. You know, be the person who says, let’s, let’s make some space for that. And I don’t have [00:47:30] to figure it out. Like, I can tap into this resource that already exists that’s been so thoroughly tested and honed, um, and see what’s here. That, that might work for us.
[00:47:42] Ben Hurst: Love it. I’m,
[00:47:43] Katharine K. Wilkinson: I also, I, I just [00:47:45] got very, uh, sort of excited and distracted because, um, uh, there are these resident red-tailed hawks that. Live around my, my condo in Atlanta, and one of them just zoomed across and the [00:48:00] chapter in the book about power and joy opens with, uh, a scene of one of these, of one of these hawks.
[00:48:06] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And the way, like, every time I see them, I’m like, all right, power and joy. Like that’s, that’s like life force in motion. Um, [00:48:15] incredible. These hawks. Mm.
[00:48:16] Maryam Pasha: Oh, how beautiful.
Stopping Friendly Fire
[00:48:18] Maryam Pasha: Um, I wanna ask a question.
[00:48:20] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Mm,
[00:48:21] Maryam Pasha: that I don’t know if you wanna include in this. This is one of my questions that may have nothing to do with anything, and Josie and Ben might cut [00:48:30] out of this, but I wonder if you have any advice or any experience that you would wanna share because around this, one of the things I see.
[00:48:42] Maryam Pasha: I see it in lots of movements and I see it in the [00:48:45] climate movement is how we spend a lot of time tearing each other down and I, and
[00:48:52] Katharine K. Wilkinson: yeah,
[00:48:53] Maryam Pasha: and it feels like such a waste of time, like, I mean, a waste of time. Not in like a dismissive way, but I mean [00:49:00] time is so finite and we have so much important work to do, and yet, yeah, we use it like.
[00:49:08] Maryam Pasha: I mean, I hate to use military analogies. I hate it, but it’s friendly fire like it is just for me.
[00:49:14] Katharine K. Wilkinson: [00:49:15] Yeah.
[00:49:15] Maryam Pasha: And I’m just wondering, like you have been between, you know, say you know all the work you’ve done with your organization, with this book, with your previous book. Like you’ve seen this movement and you’ve must have seen, yeah.
[00:49:27] Maryam Pasha: You’ve come across this. Yeah. [00:49:30] What is your advice for people who are in that space to, because it, it can also be another thing that turns people off, right? Where they just say, I did not sign up for this. I’m out.
[00:49:40] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Totally, totally. I mean, I’ll, I’ll tell you in, in the [00:49:45] spirit of just, I don’t know, may, maybe saying, saying too much, um, my, my wonderful partner will.
[00:49:55] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Has observed a lot of the inner workings of the climate movement. Right. From like my Zoom calls [00:50:00] and whatever, just like being in the space, you know, from the sidelines. Yeah. Um, from the sidelines. And, and I remember him saying one time some years ago, like, man, you know, that will make you not want to be involved.
[00:50:13] Ben Hurst: Right.
[00:50:14] Katharine K. Wilkinson: [00:50:15] Right. And it is that friendly fire. It is that tearing each other down. And I think there’s a. I think there’s probably some like built-in danger of, of people who are drawn [00:50:30] to social change movement work of any kind, right? Which is that like you’re super convicted, you’re super motivated, you’ve got a sense of what is right.
[00:50:41] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Capital R-I-G-H-D, you [00:50:45] know, and like. Somebody else who, you know, who does that differently is capital W-R-O-N-G, wrong. You know? And like this is the kind of thing that that [00:51:00] comes up. Right. And I think often that is one of those spaces where we see like. You know that the kind of lack of emotional work and [00:51:15] tending like spurting out like a problematic geyser, you know what I mean?
[00:51:20] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Um, and I get it. Like we all feel like there is so much at stake. We all feel like there are some theories of change that are better than others. We [00:51:30] all, you know, like I get that and we have got. To be able to hold those conversations with more care and more generosity and frankly more effing listening.
[00:51:44] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Right? [00:51:45] Like that is one of the, it sounds so simple, but is like such a core practice to climate Wayfinding is deep listening. When we run the program, and if you do reading groups, we do this practice of trios, like the three of us could be in a [00:52:00] trio and Miriam. For, let’s say three minutes, you would just speak on what had arisen for you through an exercise or a free write.
[00:52:12] Katharine K. Wilkinson: And the only role that Ben and I have is just to generously [00:52:15] listen. And it’s extraordinary how unusual that experience.
[00:52:21] Ben Hurst: Yeah,
[00:52:21] Katharine K. Wilkinson: right. It’s extraordinary. And if we can’t listen to each other, like we’re screwed. Right. Like that’s [00:52:30] table stakes.
[00:52:30] Ben Hurst: We Yeah. What we actually doing.
[00:52:32] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Yeah. And to be able to listen even when what we’re hearing maybe is like causing discomfort or sending up an alarm bell, or we’re like, that’s not right.
[00:52:41] Katharine K. Wilkinson: You know, like, but to be able to, to stay [00:52:45] in it and to remember that, I mean, my goodness, almost anyone who is signing up for this work is doing it. You know, with motivations that are gonna feel pretty darn similar to our own right. [00:53:00] Um, and so how do we stick together? And I think unfortunately, you know, the anti-climate forces of the world are a lot better actually at like sticking with each other and not throwing each other under the bus and not dragging [00:53:15] each other.
[00:53:15] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Through the public square. Like I, I kept, I was thinking recently about, of all strange places, colonial Williamsburg in Virginia in the US where like I went on a, on an elementary school field trip and like, we were like, oh, this is so funny. Like, you put [00:53:30] your feet in the stocks, you know, and like take pictures and it’s goofy and whatever.
[00:53:34] Katharine K. Wilkinson: But like, we still have that instinct of putting people in the stocks and then like, circling around them and mocking and jeering and like. [00:53:45] Guys, you know, like if we, if we see it in that way, I think it’s like, okay, we gotta, we gotta take a beat here. Like, this is not, this is, this is, this is not [00:54:00] useful in any way for the mission that, that we share.
[00:54:06] Maryam Pasha: Thank you so much sharing that. I
[00:54:07] Katharine K. Wilkinson: could really, you could, you could wind me up on that for, for a minute. Clearly.
[00:54:11] Maryam Pasha: That is so important. I mean, no, I mean I think it’s just, it’s so important and it [00:54:15] just listening. I mean, how simple and yet how difficult because we do care and I think that idea that we are all trying to do the same thing and actually if we just listen a bit more.
[00:54:29] Maryam Pasha: It, it can be [00:54:30] really transformative and it’s, it’s a free thing to do. Like you can just do it.
[00:54:34] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Yeah.
[00:54:34] Maryam Pasha: It’s in your power to do this. I
[00:54:37] Katharine K. Wilkinson: am. Totally. And, and, and, and then, right, like there are aspects of this work where we like. The [00:54:45] answers are not simple, right? And we need to have the capacity for dialogue and you know, maybe even debate and, but if we’ve cultivated some trust, if we’ve cultivated that listening, we’ve cultivated more emotional knowing, [00:55:00] like then we’re able to do those pieces.
[00:55:03] Katharine K. Wilkinson: In a more helpful way. Um, and so it’s not to say like, oh, it’s all just kumbaya and we don’t like, no. You know, like, you know, we’ve gotta talk about like we’re, what do we do about [00:55:15] geoengineering and the people who are proposing this as a solution? Like, this is an important, you know, thing to dig into where people may have really different perspectives, but like, we’ve gotta have, you know, that kind of human current that, that runs through it.[00:55:30]
[00:55:30] Maryam Pasha: Mm
[00:55:31] Katharine K. Wilkinson: mm
Closing Thanks and Credits
[00:55:31] Maryam Pasha: Katharine, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast and sharing my pleasure. This with us. I mean, it has been, I can’t tell you how much I needed this conversation today, and I know that people listening [00:55:45] are gonna feel the same way, and I just. We don’t do this a lot, but I would just like to tell everyone to go buy this book.
[00:55:51] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. I just think it’s really actually I really important. Yeah. And Ben does not read,
[00:55:55] Ben Hurst: so like, yeah, you’ve sold me, you’ve sold me.
[00:55:58] Maryam Pasha: Um, he does listen [00:56:00] to, but Ben you have a pretty great, don’t listen. You
[00:56:00] Katharine K. Wilkinson: have a pretty great library.
[00:56:01] Ben Hurst: Don’t worry about that. That that’s aesthetic. Those
[00:56:06] Katharine K. Wilkinson: are just, these are just books
[00:56:08] Ben Hurst: hanging, just hanging.
[00:56:09] Ben Hurst: Some of them
[00:56:09] Maryam Pasha: have, yeah. So, so Katharine, your book Climate Wayfinding: Healing Ourselves and the [00:56:15] planet We Call Home is launching in May of this year. We will link to it in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. Um, and. Your generosity with this, it’s gonna, yes. Yeah. I think it’s what people need.
[00:56:27] Ben Hurst: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.
[00:56:29] Katharine K. Wilkinson: Thank you all [00:56:30] so much for, as ever, just a really enlivening conversation. Um, it’s, it’s, yeah. You’ve made my day. Thank you for joining us this week.
[00:56:43] Maryam Pasha: We really hope you’ve enjoyed this [00:56:45] episode.
[00:56:45] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s release. While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:56:53] Maryam Pasha: Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the pod
[00:56:56] Ben Hurst: executive, produced by Josie Colter,
[00:56:58] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben [00:57:00] Beheshty.
[00:57:00] Ben Hurst: Music, also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:57:02] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston.
[00:57:05] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:57:07] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:57:09] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha,
[00:57:10] Maryam Pasha: and remember,
[00:57:11] Ben Hurst: stay [00:57:15] curious.
