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Could you protect your city through an extreme weather event? ‘The Future For Beginners’ is a game exploring climate risk and decision-making under uncertainty. Working together over 80 minutes, 30 players negotiate challenges and make decisions to create an unforgettable cultural event in the face of catastrophe. Having just played the simulation, Climate Curious’s Maryam Pasha sits down with these game maestros to ask, why a climate simulation game? And how does creating mini mayors in all of us help inspire climate action? “Games can be quite good at giving people that real zoomed out bird’s eye view of something while still letting you inhabit it”, says game designers Mel Frances and Nathan Harrison on Climate Curious. Recorded at TED 2026.
For more information on Future for Beginners, head here:https://davidfinig.com/the-future-for-beginners/
Read more about Mel and Nathan’s wider practice head here: https://bohointeractive.com/playing-through-complexity‘
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Created by TEDxLondon
Executive produced by Josie Colter
Produced by Ben Beheshty
Curated by Deesha Chandra
Hosted by Maryam Pasha and Ben Hurst
Communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston
00:00 Intro
00:33 Introducing Mel and Nathan
03:08 Why Make Climate Games
05:26 Design Research and Props
06:55 Inside the Scenario
08:06 Roles Rivalries and Betrayal
10:22 Tradeoffs Values Exposed
14:01 Speed Pressure and Dilemmas
15:59 Why Immersive Play Works
19:05 Short Term vs Long Term
21:54 Uncertainty Proactive Planning
23:16 Dream Players for the Game
25:15 Thanks and Closing Credits
Intro
[00:00:00] Nathan Harrison: Sometimes people really enjoy playing against their own values, and you’re like, this is a chance to be the bad guy.
[00:00:08] Nathan Harrison: This is Climate Curious, the podcast for people who are bored, scared, or
[00:00:13] Ben Hurst: confused by climate change. [00:00:15]
[00:00:15] Maryam Pasha: I’m Marion Parer, the director and curator at Telex London, and the co-host of this podcast alongside the amazing Ben.
[00:00:21] Ben Hurst: Hi. I’m Ben Hurst, activist and advocate exploring what positive masculinities can look like and self-confessed climate norm. Me.[00:00:30]
Introducing Mel and Nathan
[00:00:33] Maryam Pasha: I’m actually so, so thrilled because this is actually the conversation I’ve been wanting to have since before we even came here because I was looking forward. To meeting Mel and Nathan for, for weeks, if not [00:00:45] months before Ted. So let me just, let me before I jump into it, ’cause I will jump into it. Let me introduce Mel and Nathan to you.
[00:00:50] Maryam Pasha: So Mel Francis is a game designer, digital storyteller and creative mathematician. I love it. Nathan Harrison is a theater maker and game designer and living in, I’m [00:01:00] not gonna be able to pronounce this Nathan, so you’re gonna have to say it to me.
[00:01:02] Nathan Harrison: Bial.
[00:01:03] Maryam Pasha: Bial and Bial country in what we call Australia. Yeah.
[00:01:08] Maryam Pasha: Okay. Now that I’ve gotten through butchering everyone’s names, uh, and their jobs. The two of you. So the [00:01:15] first thing I did this year at Ted, the first, first, first thing was to come and play a game that the two of you were running, which I was so excited to do. And it was a game about climate and decision making and, and all of this before we get into the game, which is [00:01:30] called The Future for Beginners, which is such a brilliant title.
[00:01:32] Maryam Pasha: Can you just tell us like a little bit about both of you, because I think the context is really important here. So, yeah. And just for context, they also have one microphone because I refuse to give them mine.
[00:01:43] Nathan Harrison: So we’re good at sharing. [00:01:45] Uh, so, uh, am I speaking for both of us? I don’t. Uh, so, so
[00:01:49] Maryam Pasha: tell us about you, Nathan.
[00:01:50] Nathan Harrison: About me. Well, uh, I, like you said, I make theater, I make games. Um, I’m interested in sort of trying to. Ideas that feel complex and thorny [00:02:00] and, and make them personable and, and, uh, playable. Um, yeah, I make, I make work about the climate and ecology and wildlife conservation, um, and stuff like that. Uh, yeah, some of my work is theater and, and plays.
[00:02:12] Nathan Harrison: Um, and then a lot of the time, like what [00:02:15] we’ve been doing this week is it’s making games that people can come in and play Great. And have an experience. Yeah.
[00:02:20] Maryam Pasha: Wonderful. Amel, what about you? A little bit of background?
[00:02:22] Mel Frances: Yeah. So I think you’ve. Spoken, spoken quite nicely to what we both do. Um, as you said, I call myself a creative mathematician, so I have an, uh, [00:02:30] academic background in maths and that really led to this interest in systems and how systems work and seeing systems as dynamic fluid things.
[00:02:36] Mel Frances: And I think that’s why games are such a great way to look at systems and give players and people and understanding of how systems operate. And I think a lot of, um, [00:02:45] what I love about gathering people to play games about the climate is also, uh. Talking about climate justice and really looking at climate in the con in, in direct dialogue with social justice.
[00:02:54] Mel Frances: Because so often the conversation happens in one sphere and actually all of these, all of these systems are [00:03:00] completely interwoven. And I kind of think we shouldn’t really be having conversations about the climate if we’re not having conversations about climate justice.
[00:03:06] Maryam Pasha: The game.
[00:03:07] Mel Frances: Yeah.
Why Make Climate Games
[00:03:08] Maryam Pasha: I almost don’t wanna spoil it for people who might play it, but, but, um, it’s, I [00:03:15] guess I’m, I’m curious to know, as you were thinking, we’re gonna design a game about climate and obviously you both, as you said, work on this.
[00:03:23] Maryam Pasha: What were some of the things that you wanted people to experience? What was it that you wanted to accomplish with a game like this? [00:03:30] And I guess maybe just for context, just to say it’s not a board game. Um, it’s an. It’s like a immersive, interactive simulation that looks at climate and risk and it’s kind of role playing.
[00:03:41] Maryam Pasha: So we’ll get into the details, but as you were thinking of using [00:03:45] theater and gaming to to talk about climate, what were some of the goals that you wanted to accomplish with putting people in the scenarios?
[00:03:52] Mel Frances: So I think that it’s really about giving people a, we call it a hands-on climate scenario, and it’s really about giving people a sense of [00:04:00] those decisions.
[00:04:01] Mel Frances: And I think the game has a couple of different elements. So there are specific projects that you do look at in the game, and so there’s some kind of information I guess, that you can take away. There’s some kind of practical learnings perhaps, that you might take away about those projects. Um. And one of [00:04:15] the big dynamics we were interested in in designing it was trying to illuminate the difference between carbon mi, uh, climate mitigation projects that are about energy shift or about creating carbon sinks and really kind of changing emissions and carbon, and then climate adaptation projects, [00:04:30] which in the UK context anyway, there’s less.
[00:04:33] Mel Frances: Discussion, and I think we’re feeling the impacts of climate in the uk, but less conversation about how we’re transitioning to, um, climate adaptation. So it’s partly about during that illumination, um, but then also about putting that in the messy [00:04:45] human context of like what happens when 30 people are in a space trying to make decisions together and how something that feel might feel simple on a piece of paper actually lives with people in a room.
[00:04:56] Nathan Harrison: I think as well, uh, games can be quite good at giving people that [00:05:00] real zoomed out bird’s eye view of something and while still letting you embody it and inhabit it. So I think we wanted to give people a sense of, of just feeling what these decisions are like and having to make choices and having to look at a whole system and see how the things that we [00:05:15] decide, especially in the coming years and decades, will have huge impacts in lots of different ways and sometimes.
[00:05:21] Nathan Harrison: Impacts that are quite unexpected. Um, but we still have to make those decisions.
Design Research and Props
[00:05:26] Maryam Pasha: I wanna get geeky into the mechanics of the game a little bit. How did you decide [00:05:30] to, to, I’m always interested in like the creative process in this. How did you decide what to use, the scenario, like what does that process look like?
[00:05:41] Maryam Pasha: And then let’s talk about the scenario. Put people in.
[00:05:44] Nathan Harrison: Um, well, I guess [00:05:45] there’s a lot of research that goes into it. Okay. Um, and we had quite a few research partners with this. Um, we worked with Chatham House in London. Uh, there were other creatives that were feeding in as well. Uh, our research from previous projects in Singapore with Earth Observatory Singapore.
[00:05:58] Nathan Harrison: Um, [00:06:00] and so a a lot of that research going into try and, I guess, identify. What are, what are these interesting choices that we want people to make? Yeah,
[00:06:09] Mel Frances: and I think as well, um, which you talk about really wonderfully is that often you, the, these games [00:06:15] give people a really like, I guess practical in depth understanding of system mechanics.
[00:06:19] Mel Frances: So these ideas of what is a trade-off and what does a tipping point look like? And I think in trying to design the game, part of what we’re looking at is how can we create. Tactile and embodied [00:06:30] experiences of what these things actually mean. Um, we work this with this, an amazing designer called Becky Deon on this game, and there are these gorgeous wooden handmade props.
[00:06:39] Mel Frances: And so the experience is partly about that tactility. So I think in terms of thinking about, it’s also, it’s [00:06:45] not, it’s what, what you think through and what you talk through, but it’s also what it feels like. And I think that that was a big part of the design process as well. And those things kind of run concurrently as we’re imagining something.
[00:06:54] Mel Frances: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Inside the Scenario
[00:06:55] Maryam Pasha: So the game,
[00:06:55] Mel Frances: yeah.
[00:06:57] Maryam Pasha: Let’s just do, let, I mean, in a way there are no [00:07:00] spoilers ’cause everyone who plays it plays it differently, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, so will you just tell us a bit about, so that we can reference it a bit about the, like if when we arrived in the room, what was, what was the, the scenario that we were in?
[00:07:13] Nathan Harrison: Uh, so there are [00:07:15] five tables set up. Uh, so people playing in five teams. Uh, each team is a different town in a region of Southeast Asia, along a peninsula. Um, and they working together as their table as a town. But then also there’s quite a few moments where they have [00:07:30] to kind of come together as a region and make some big decisions, but they are navigating kind of the next few years.
[00:07:36] Nathan Harrison: Um, as just like a little window of the future. And they are juggling social and economic responsibilities to their communities. Um, and pro, you [00:07:45] know, things like improving housing and roads, investing in workers and community against projects, uh, that are gonna help them, uh, both deal with the impacts of climate, but also, you know, contribute to.
[00:07:58] Nathan Harrison: They’re being less impacts of [00:08:00] climate
[00:08:00] Maryam Pasha: and each of us, and we’re politicians like, like as players, we were taking on the role of like decision makers in this town.
Roles Rivalries and Betrayal
[00:08:06] Maryam Pasha: What I loved is you gave us personalities and I thought was so interesting and I’m always so interested by how quickly people adapt to the, the characters that they’re given.
[00:08:18] Mel Frances: I think it also does this really interesting thing where the way the game is set up is quite clearly that the towns are not in competition. Yes. The goals are collaborative, the aim is for the whole region to succeed [00:08:30] and and there are two, there are two goals really. Yeah. To, to work together. And I think that the character does this interesting thing where you begin to see some of this kind of insular competitive behavior where like, because okay, this town is maybe focused more on sports and this town is focused more on food.
[00:08:44] Mel Frances: Yeah. That you [00:08:45] get this kind of. Back chat sometimes between the two towns, you get some kind of quite competitive behavior and I think it really begins to speak to some of the kind of challenges I guess, that come from trying to look at what so often need to be international and multinational [00:09:00] collaborations to deliver these climate projects when actually you have these kind of layers of human.
[00:09:05] Mel Frances: Connection, collaboration, communication. That can cause some barriers.
[00:09:10] Nathan Harrison: We’ve had a lot of betrayal in the games this week that did not need to happen. [00:09:15] We’re not pushing for that. I don’t think the game is pushing for that. No, it’s not. But it’s, it’s, it’s wild. ’cause you talk about, you know, we give people these roles.
[00:09:21] Nathan Harrison: There’s not a lot that you don’t, people don’t need much of a nudge to No. It’s
[00:09:24] like
[00:09:24] Maryam Pasha: three sentences
[00:09:25] Nathan Harrison: and Yeah. You were immediate. And I really take that on. I, I think one of the nice. Things that games can do [00:09:30] is, is give people a chance to, I think, leave a lot of baggage at the door. Yes. In terms of what they might already think about this topic and those relationships.
[00:09:38] Nathan Harrison: But then also, I guess just to lean in and be playful. Sometimes people really enjoy playing against their own values. Yeah. You’re [00:09:45] like, this is a chance to be the bad guy. And Yes. We’ve had so many people play the game and they’d be like, I did all the things that I tell people not to do. Oh, because I got seduced by.
[00:09:53] Nathan Harrison: Yes. Yes. You know, the, the, the struggle of these, these decisions, it’s very interesting.
[00:09:58] Maryam Pasha: I things. [00:10:00] So in playing the game, I mean, I laughed so hard when you said it’s not competitive because I literally, they’re gone. But we sat down with our team and we kinda made half the table, and then there were like three other people who arrived, but somehow we’d like.
[00:10:12] Maryam Pasha: Happened to be at a table where everyone at the table was super [00:10:15] competitive and like we sat down and were like, we’re gonna win. Right. There was no winning, like there was winning, but there was no winning as an individual team. Yeah.
Tradeoffs Values Exposed
[00:10:22] Maryam Pasha: But the thing, so there were moments in the game that really stuck with me.
[00:10:26] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm. One of them was so obviously. You know, as we were [00:10:30] describing, there are these, there’s like rounds and like there are key decisions as, as, as government, like as the government of these like, or the councils of these towns that you have to make. And you have to make trade offs as, as you always do, and that you have budgets and you have all of this.
[00:10:43] Maryam Pasha: And I found it so interesting [00:10:45] how there were certain things that everyone was so quickly willing to trade off in our, in our group, right? So everyone. Was willing to write off education, uh, culture training and young and older people. Yeah. Like they just threw them under the bus. Yeah. [00:11:00] Meanwhile, like most of us in that room might have fallen into some of those categories.
[00:11:03] Mel Frances: Yeah. And uh, it’s really interesting as well the kind of, um, people will be much more willing to support public housing, but not improving road quality. Yeah. But when you really interrogate, kind of like what happens if people can’t travel around on roads? [00:11:15] Who are the people who are impacted by the fact that they can’t reach.
[00:11:18] Mel Frances: You know, public resources, they can’t reach healthcare. They, you know, I think it’s a, it, it really demonstrates kind of shared value systems because we’ve had so many games where every group has canceled the same project. Yeah. And this [00:11:30] is so fascinating that you Yeah. You really begin to see this kind of value system be exposed.
[00:11:34] Mel Frances: And I guess also perhaps. Part of it speaks to the power of language, right? It’s the phrasing of the projects, it’s part of what’s going on as well in terms of how are we speaking about these things and how are we articulating these commitments to [00:11:45] each other?
[00:11:45] Nathan Harrison: And I think it’s interesting, like in the design process, you know, we, we kind of wanna make all these projects.
[00:11:51] Nathan Harrison: Good. And, and you know, like you, you should want to do them, but it’s impossible to make them the same. Like they just can’t be. And then yeah, we [00:12:00] get to have really lovely conversations afterwards with people and who are kind of interrogating why. Yeah. Yeah. Why they’ve made those choices.
[00:12:06] Maryam Pasha: I mean, one thing in our group was that everyone cut the free transport for over fifties.
[00:12:11] Maryam Pasha: And I was thinking about it and, and I was like, and there were a few people in the room who [00:12:15] were over 50 and they said, yeah, I, I wanted this gone too. And I thought, yes, because look at our context. Nobody in this room pretty much can imagine. Being over 50 and needing free transport.
[00:12:27] Ben Hurst: Mm.
[00:12:28] Maryam Pasha: So they see it as like a,
[00:12:29] Nathan Harrison: mm-hmm.[00:12:30]
[00:12:30] Maryam Pasha: I can imagine in other contexts that is seen as essential if you look at yourself or your older family members not being able to leave their home. And so I, I thought that was, that was fascinating. The other thing I loved is where you had us become specialists in, I think it [00:12:45] was like, um, my, no, uh, was it mine?
[00:12:47] Maryam Pasha: No, it wasn’t mining. It was, um. When we’ve created the paper planes.
[00:12:51] Mel Frances: Yeah,
[00:12:51] Nathan Harrison: yeah. Rare
[00:12:52] Maryam Pasha: earth minerals. You were,
[00:12:52] Nathan Harrison: earth minerals were mining and, and
[00:12:54] Maryam Pasha: shipping. And I, what was so fascinating about what was happening, I could see it even in myself, [00:13:00] was so you kind of made us compete. This is like the first time we were competing.
[00:13:03] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Like as mountain regions and non mountain regions in like, um, trying to get these, these like becoming experts or becoming like the leaders in the production of these rare, and [00:13:15] literally it was. There was no, there was like no way that anyone in that room could really have a skill that they developed in the 30 seconds you gave us.
[00:13:25] Maryam Pasha: You know what I mean? Although, I would like to say that I came up with a great strategy that won that, Rebecca, that we [00:13:30] won the that. Yeah, you did pretty
[00:13:31] Mel Frances: well.
[00:13:31] Maryam Pasha: Well, you know what we did, I mean, I’m just gonna say this, we may cut this out, but you know I did is. We folded all the airplay, airplay, but I put them all together so they were heavy and I threw them and they all landed because if you throw ’em at once, they’re not lying.
[00:13:43] Maryam Pasha: No
[00:13:43] Mel Frances: one’s won it in the way that you [00:13:45] did on Monday. So I, I did wonder about what strategy has gone on there.
[00:13:48] Nathan Harrison: It’s a wonder that the Air Force don’t adopt that. That feels like the most official one. Everything
[00:13:52] Mel Frances: just pile all the planes.
[00:13:54] Maryam Pasha: It wasn’t, I would like to say that it was like. Premeditated. It was not, it was that you were like 3, 2, 1.
[00:13:59] Maryam Pasha: And I was like, [00:14:00] throw them off.
[00:14:00] Mel Frances: Yeah.
Speed Pressure and Dilemmas
[00:14:01] Mel Frances: And I think speed is a really interesting component, right? Yes. Because we used, there were so many
[00:14:04] Maryam Pasha: times you did this,
[00:14:05] Mel Frances: used a couple of times in the game. So, um, early on there’s a choice that you have to make very quickly. Yes. And in terms of disaster response, you’re given.
[00:14:12] Mel Frances: 10 seconds to make decisions. And I think that [00:14:15] this is also a really, um, sometimes again, when we can think about decisions at a distance, there’s this real sense of like, ah, when we get to sit, think through and reason through and consider all of the different components. Yes, yes, we might make one decision, but when we’re under time pressure and someone’s standing there being like, what are you gonna do?
[00:14:28] Mel Frances: What are you gonna do? Yeah. Slightly [00:14:30] different decision gets made. Yeah. So I think that that’s a, that’s one of our tools, I guess as designers.
[00:14:34] Nathan Harrison: I think so.
[00:14:35] Maryam Pasha: I mean, I, one of the situations you put us in was classic prisoner’s dilemma.
[00:14:38] Mel Frances: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:39] Maryam Pasha: Um, where for those who don’t know, like if you, if everyone acts together, you do better, but if [00:14:45] only some people act, then those people are like disadvantaged.
[00:14:48] Maryam Pasha: Right. Yes. I had to say, I’ve always thought that if I was in a prisoner’s dilemma situation, I would. Work for the collective good. I did not, and I convinced the entire table. I was just [00:15:00] like, guys, no one else is gonna vote for this. We’re not gonna be the fools to vote for this, so don’t do it. Or like, or like pay for it.
[00:15:06] Maryam Pasha: Like put our our, and we didn’t, and then we ended up with the most, but the crazy thing right from that, that really got me, and this is the psychology people, was it. [00:15:15] Later when I tried to go round and do some like regional diplomacy, people really hated me.
[00:15:22] Nathan Harrison: Yeah. They remember. Yeah.
[00:15:23] Maryam Pasha: They were, they were like, you did not contribute.
[00:15:26] Maryam Pasha: You better give us stuff now. And, and that [00:15:30] coupled with the fact that we like won that. That game to become like the leaders in the rare earth minerals, and the fact that you had told us that we were the most beautiful, fashionable region, people really did not like us By end.[00:15:45]
[00:15:47] Maryam Pasha: Okay. I like carry that persona all week. By the way, just so you know,
[00:15:53] Mel Frances: we can just sit with you being from the most attractive, stylish
[00:15:56] Maryam Pasha: town if you want. Yeah, that’s fine. Um, okay.
Why Immersive Play Works
[00:15:59] Maryam Pasha: But the idea of this kind of gaming and immersive, uh, interactive theater is so powerful as designers in it and as people who’ve, who’ve obviously seen so many people play this game.
[00:16:16] Maryam Pasha: What, what is the power of this do you feel for, for, um, being part of this climate movement? Being like meeting this moment, we need to meet.
[00:16:25] Nathan Harrison: I mean, it’s a big question. I, I think one of the things is that games like this can [00:16:30] go into spaces that sometimes it’s hard to have these conversations. Um, like this can sort of fit in like a boardroom or you know, like lots of places that.
[00:16:39] Nathan Harrison: Maybe people want to have the chat, but it’s a bit hard to start that. And again, it’s a nice way to let people leave all their [00:16:45] political baggage at the door and just play. Um, but I think a, a really important part of the game and, and all the work we do, I think is, is like having a conversation afterwards.
[00:16:56] Nathan Harrison: And the thing that the game can do is let you embody these ideas and [00:17:00] really feel what it’s like to navigate these systems qualities, these trade offs, these tipping points that we’re all facing. Yeah. And then afterwards have a really good conversation about it. Yes. Grounded in, in what it felt like to play and, and all the material is there and the [00:17:15] story was there.
[00:17:16] Nathan Harrison: And you can kind of then compare that to the real world. But there’s something really important about embodying that with a sense of fun as well, that it’s not. It harsh. It’s This is inviting. It’s playful. Yeah.
[00:17:27] Mel Frances: And I think it can, um, you [00:17:30] create a shared experience right by, with all the people who are there.
[00:17:32] Mel Frances: And there are these moments you tell a story together. So we have a story that we’re telling as facilitators, but this whole other story emerges in the room and the dynamics between people and I think what you say about the, how we think we might behave and then how we actually [00:17:45] behave in that space. Is a really interesting thing to experience because suddenly you are like, oh, what is the reason I ended up doing this thing rather than this thing?
[00:17:53] Mel Frances: And I think it, it shows some of the gaps or some of the, it illuminates some of the challenges in a really useful way. [00:18:00] Um, and I think that as well, um, yeah, as you often say, um, really well that like. Sometimes the ga, the game is really about getting people into this space to have a good conversation afterwards.
[00:18:09] Mel Frances: But I think in that way, that is dialogic. It doesn’t, there isn’t a set of things that we want you to learn from the [00:18:15] game. Yes, yes. So it’s not particularly di it’s not didactic in what it’s offering at all really, but it’s asking questions and it’s illuminating dynamics and, um. It’s not a game where kind of like you do see the impact of the things that you do.
[00:18:28] Mel Frances: So as much as it’s not [00:18:30] didactic, we are showing things, we’re trying to show things as they are. So there is this moment where you see a tipping point, um, spoiler, but see a tipping point tip. And then you can have a conversation about what that felt like and what that is and where that came from. And I think that, um.
[00:18:44] Mel Frances: Yeah, we do. We’ve [00:18:45] just, after all of the games here, we’ve had these really great discussions about why did a thing work in this particular way, and then here are all the examples we’ve seen of how that’s happened in the real world. And I think, yeah, it’s a really great spark for shared reflection. And when people come from really different back backgrounds, context spaces, it [00:19:00] can be a sh a point of, um, shared experience that can then spark discussion.
Short Term vs Long Term
[00:19:05] Maryam Pasha: For me, the thing that was really visceral was feeling the short-term wins versus the long-term wins. So [00:19:15] feeling that, yeah, we did this thing, we built this road, we like had this great thing happening and then. And like, and like, oh yeah, in the background we’re investing in these like long-term things and we dunno what’s gonna happen.
[00:19:25] Maryam Pasha: And then all of a sudden you have like the extreme weather events, you have the other things and it just comes [00:19:30] in and derails everything. And I just made me further reflect on why it’s so easy for us to focus on the short term things that feel good. And not the long-term things, but then those long-term [00:19:45] things are the things that give us the, the resilience, the real protective.
[00:19:49] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. You know, it was the. We had someone who worked in humanitarian assistance on the table, and you know, she, she went on and on and she, not on and on, but she, she was the only one who brought up like the, the kind of [00:20:00] evacuation centers or the education programs. And I kept being like, this is just a waste of money.
[00:20:05] Maryam Pasha: Like, in my head I was like, we should not be spending on this. And then. At one point, again, it became very obvious that we needed to be. I thought, wow, it’s, anyway, I [00:20:15] just, this is why I love games like this is because actually what it does is, is that it, it really shows you what you actually think and what you might actually do in certain circumstances, rather than what you assume you know and think,
[00:20:26] Nathan Harrison: I think is what, sorry, just to jump on that.
[00:20:28] Nathan Harrison: Yes,
[00:20:28] Maryam Pasha: please, please, please,
[00:20:28] Nathan Harrison: please. Um. I [00:20:30] think, not in the sense of letting us off the hook, but I think one of the things that I quite like that the game does is show that that’s, that it is hard. Yes. And like, you want to do all these things. Yes,
[00:20:39] Maryam Pasha: yes,
[00:20:39] Nathan Harrison: yes. For very good reasons. And, and like it’s, it’s all good and well to be like, oh no, we [00:20:45] actually need to do all these long-term things, but if we don’t invest in the now and, and invest in people right now.
[00:20:50] Nathan Harrison: Yes. It’s like, what are we keeping resilient? Yeah. If, if our communities are not even gonna make the distance to that long term.
[00:20:56] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. I, I felt like. I left with [00:21:00] more empathy towards decision makers and. And also an insight into, if we really want people to like, at like those levels of government make decisions, we have to make it really easy for them to see [00:21:15] benefits, trade offs, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:21:17] Maryam Pasha: Like it has to like be a no brainer so that when they ha, when they’re pressed for time and they have to make these decisions, it was just like, so I found that in the different solutions that we could invest in as a town, because as a. [00:21:30] Group of people. We had expertise in different things and we had, you know, Deisha, our curator on this podcast is like an expert in nature-based solutions.
[00:21:37] Maryam Pasha: So when we were looking at those, we were like, should we do this or this? And she was like, no, do this one, this one’s better. It was like, great, do it. Yeah. [00:21:45] If, if you, if you are not. How, if you don’t have that skillset as a decision maker, it’s our job, I think, in the field to give that to them.
[00:21:53] Nathan Harrison: Yeah,
Uncertainty Proactive Planning
[00:21:54] Mel Frances: there’s a really interesting thing that happens as well where, you know, you see, you go, we go around at tables at the start and people are like, [00:22:00] how many rounds are we gonna have?
[00:22:01] Mel Frances: Oh, and are we gonna get conscious? And there is this. Sense of prediction, right? Yeah. Of kind of like, I wanna know, and you know, they’re trying to kind of like gain the script. Yes. And game the game the scenario. And I think win. Yeah. They wanna win. They wanna win, they wanna win. Of course, you know, it’s a game.
[00:22:14] Mel Frances: People [00:22:15] wanna win a again, winning is a collective thing, but that will hurt aside. But I think it, it does this interesting thing again, in the short term, long term. There’s also an element of uncertainty, right? Yes. And one of the things I think the game illuminates is there are a couple of moments where things land.
[00:22:28] Mel Frances: Particularly in particular [00:22:30] areas. And so there is a sense of like if you prepared in that scenario, if you had an evacuation center, then you can weather that weather event. Yes. Yes. In a different way to people who haven’t. And I think that the game also illuminates the way in which I think the difference between kind of, uh.
[00:22:44] Mel Frances: [00:22:45] Proactive and reactive. Yes. Re responses to weather events and how so often we end up having to be reactive because we don’t ha we’re not doing any of the proactive work. But then if you put that proactive stuff in earlier, it costs you so much less than if you have to marshal like a huge disaster response.
[00:22:59] Nathan Harrison: People always say [00:23:00] afterwards like, oh, if we had known the storm was gonna hit out town, we would’ve built this. Like, yeah, that’s the world we live in.
[00:23:06] Maryam Pasha: No, but it is, there’s no do overs in the game. That’s the thing is, is it’s not like being like, oh, okay, well we didn’t prepare for this storm, so we’ll prepare for the next one because the next one may never [00:23:15] come.
[00:23:15] Mel Frances: Yeah.
[00:23:16] Maryam Pasha: Um, okay.
Dream Players for the Game
[00:23:16] Maryam Pasha: Last question. Who, if you could have any group of 30 people play this game, who would you want it to be?
[00:23:25] Nathan Harrison: That’s a horrible question.
[00:23:27] Maryam Pasha: I did not write it. [00:23:30]
[00:23:30] Nathan Harrison: Horrible to answer. I mean, it’s a really good question, but that’s that. Um, I hate.
[00:23:36] Mel Frances: I think, um, and I hope this doesn’t feel like a cop out answer, but I would love a, like a really mixed group of people.
[00:23:43] Mel Frances: So I would love like high level [00:23:45] decision makers from different nations to be playing it with like a 14-year-old high school student. Yeah. And someone in their ninth. Nineties and Yeah. You know, and I, I won’t speak to all of the kind of intersections, but I think that there is, first of all, like you’re saying about [00:24:00] having those expertise around a table and those lived experiences around the table is really effective, but also being able to then have the conversation with that group afterwards Yeah.
[00:24:09] Mel Frances: Would be really incredible. So I think that there is real value in, um. The na [00:24:15] the, the thing about cultural work often it, it can do this thing where you get a group of people who otherwise might not sit in a room together for half an hour. Yes, yes. And they experience something together. And I think that, yeah.
[00:24:24] Mel Frances: I’m interested in what happens when people who otherwise might not speak, come and play the game together and then kind of [00:24:30] experience what that is like.
[00:24:31] Nathan Harrison: Yeah, I think, and because in the same way that you said that the game might give empathy towards decision makers, which, you know, feels like, do we need that May, whatever.
[00:24:41] Nathan Harrison: But I think the reverse is true as well. You know, we talked about, [00:24:45] um, canceling free public transport for over 50, over 50 in the game. It’s like, well, if. That community is represented in the room. Yeah. That feels different as well.
[00:24:52] Maryam Pasha: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, I mean, and to clarify, I do think empathy in the sense that I think that sometimes we can get [00:25:00] righteous about.
[00:25:00] Maryam Pasha: Mm-hmm. Well, it’s just people should just make these easy decisions and I’m always like, if it was easy, people would do it. Yeah. Mostly, uh. I, I love that idea of the mixture because I do think that the lived experience adds like a whole other level of it. And, and if we’d had more [00:25:15] of, yeah.
Thanks and Closing Credits
[00:25:15] Maryam Pasha: I, I just wanna say thank you so much for bringing it here.
[00:25:18] Maryam Pasha: I think it was, it was such a pleasure to play it. We will be letting you know if and when the game will be on again in London, in other places, so that people can go play it. Because I would really encourage [00:25:30] you, if you can, to, to do this. There is. There’s something magical about this format. It’s so simple, and yet I haven’t thought thinking about it in a week.
[00:25:38] Maryam Pasha: So thank you so much.
[00:25:40] Mel Frances: Pleasure. Thank you for coming to play.
[00:25:43] Maryam Pasha: Thank you for joining us this week.
[00:25:44] Nathan Harrison: We [00:25:45] really
[00:25:45] Maryam Pasha: hope you’ve enjoyed this episode.
[00:25:46] Ben Hurst: If you did, please hit the follow button to make sure that you get next week’s release. While you’re at it, please leave a rating and a review.
[00:25:54] Maryam Pasha: Now let’s shout out to our fabulous team behind the pod
[00:25:58] Ben Hurst: executive produced by Josie [00:26:00] Colter,
[00:26:00] Maryam Pasha: produced by Ben Beheshty.
[00:26:02] Ben Hurst: Music, also by Ben Beheshty,
[00:26:04] Maryam Pasha: communications by Tara Cooper and Issey Gladston.
[00:26:07] Ben Hurst: Curation by Deesha Chandra,
[00:26:09] Maryam Pasha: hosted by Ben Hurst.
[00:26:11] Ben Hurst: I’m Maryam Pasha,
[00:26:12] Maryam Pasha: and remember,
[00:26:13] Ben Hurst: stay [00:26:15] curious.
